Someone asked on another thread something about how far back some could be and still have an effect on the resulting progeny. The general rule of thumb is if they are in the fourth line...not much influence.

Anyway, I had some time to kill today(don't tell my wife) and I entered in as much as I could most 10 generations deep in a DB. Some were only 5...the Czech dogs are hard to trace...(Hanna). Anyway, I will use an upcoming breeding I am doing as an example. I thought was quite telling. When you look at it like a normal breeding there is no line breeding. I am talking about Rocky to Mara. Nothing in the 3-4-5. However, when figuring the breeding coefficient something quite telling comes out.

Typical percentages for the 1st generation 25% each parent 12.5 for the 2nd generation 6.25 for the third gernation and 3.125 for the 4th generation. So, as I said in the fourth you really lose any deceranble traits as it is only 3.125% contribution.

With the 10 generations this is what comes up:

Greif zum Lahntal appears 4 times 3.9063%
Gildo vom Korbelbach 2 3.9063%
Umsa vom Bungalow 3 3.5156%
Bernd v Lierberg 16 3.2227%

So if I understand this correctly the above four dogs will have more influence on the litter than the fourth generation. When you run the report and only go 5 gernations nothing shows up. Normal breakdown.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Since no one responded...I will keep talking to my self...just keep swimming just keep swimming...

I forgot on the above list of four dogs it should have been five.

Sagus vom Busecker Schloss appears 2 times for a 3.125%

Upon further review if we look a little further down between the 4th and 5th generation I have 10 more dogs that theoretically have more influence than the 5th generation.

Mike v Bungalow
Jago von den Junger Hansen
Cora zum Lahntal
eros vom Busecker Schloss
Irus vom Flotzbachtal
Pali vom Bungalow
Bert vom Haus Knufken
Caro v Allerswald
Vello zu den Sieben-Faulen
nanouc vom Bungalow

According to the statistics they have between 1.66% and 2.14% chance.

Normal 4th generation is 3.125% and 5th is 1.5625%

I think I have this...any geneticists out there... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Is that litter on the ground?

No, should be bred this week or next. We are on Mara's schedule...lol

Todd,
What is the best way to get a copy of the pedigree that goes back at least 10 generations or more.
Thanks, Art

Dig Dig Dig. I bought the WinSis-X program. Which is a GSD database. That was my starting point. Then research on the web...only using actual documents as too many people have errors on websites. AKC is not a big help for me as not my lines. Yvonne Hecht has a Pedigree research business. Again, not a big help for me as most of my lines are Czech.

Well, Yvonne has a fantastic WGR database, and I'm helping her compile a DDR database, but...

I think we need to convince a certain board member to put out an edition of Czech dogs (hint, hint). Even though I deal mostly in WGR & DDR lines, I'd be more than happy to buy a copy of a Czech database that I could import directly into my WinSIS database (another BIG hint, hint!).

Sure hope she's listening, that way maybe she'll get the HINT! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

oh, and Todd, are you running the older version or did you get your upgrade to 4.75? If not, you should, it allows tracing of female lines as well and besides the new options and goodies, a lot of the errors in the old system are eliminated.

Todd,

I might be misunderstanding what you wrote. But the first generation is the parents who each contribute 50% to a dog's genetics (not 25% as you said?). The second generation is grand parents at 25% each, etc.

I think the question is, after summing up the contributions (also called "percentage of blood") for a dog that's found multiple times in a pedigree, if it adds up to say 3.5%, does this means the dog contributed more than a dog in generation 5 which is 3.125% (not generation 4 as you said)? Statistically, yes, that's what it means.

Incidentally, I'll bet if you took your dog's pedigree back to the beginning of the breed, you'd have some real eye openers. In all likelihood, Horand v Grafrath, Max's personal dog and the first registered GSD, probably adds up to 23%. That's what I've found for every GSD I've traced back that far, whether they are DDR, WG working, WG show, or American lines. That's nearly the same genetic contribution as a grandparent... coming from a dog born more than 100 years ago.

This sort of "percentage of blood" analysis gives us an idea of what happens statistically, on average. But there are other factors that influence which genes are represented in a dog. One of the random effect that we have no control over. The other is due to the selection choices by breeders. So while the 16 instances of Bernd v Lierberg added up to 3.2227% in your dog's pedigree, it's possible that your dog (being of working lines) got more than 3.2227% of his genes from Bernd...at least for the genes that influence working ability. That's because Bernd brought a lot of strong working traits to the breed, so these genes would be more likely to be carried on through subsequent generations... so long as breeders select for these traits.

The farther back in a pedigree a dog appears, the more likely that dog's actual contribution to your dog's genetics might be skewed up or down from what a statistical "percentage of blood" calculation says.

Laura

Thanks for your input. The 25% is correct as this is a probability standpoint. Yes each parent contributes 50% of the genes...but you have randomization in the litter and so forth so a probability standpoint it is 25, 12.5 6.25 as I stated. This is coming off a program written specifically for Inbreeding coefficients using Wright's theory(I think that is the correct word).

Here is a breif write up:

Coefficient of Inbreeding

Dr. Sewall Wright, the most renowned geneticist of the century, defined an inbreeding coefficient. This is a number which expresses the homozygosity (inbred like characteristics) of any animal as a mathematical equation. This equation is now known as the "F" Coefficient, "COI" or "Inbreeding Coefficient," and is recognized as the standard in objectively measuring the amount of inbreeding in an animal.

The following is from "Animal Breeding" by Laurence M. Winters, University of Minnesota. Winters stated that the formula for COI was developed by Dr. Wright, and published in 1922 in The American Naturalist.
"The effects of inbreeding are the fixation of characters and increased prepotency; these are in direct proportion to the percentage of homozygosis; the percentage of homozygosis is in direct proportion to the degree of inbreeding."
"The sire and dam of the inbred individual have a common ancestor or ancestors. The summation of the coefficients for every line by which the parents are connected gives the coefficient of inbreeding of the individual in question."

"Each line is traced back from the sire to a common ancestor and then forward to the dam. It passes through no individual more than once, but the same ancestors may occur in more than one line."
The formula for obtaining the coefficient of inbreeding is

in which Fx and Fa are the coefficients for the individual and the common ancestor, respectively, and N and N! are the number of generations between the common ancestor and the sire and dam, respectively.