I've been taking the advice on using the motivational training vs. the Older method. I've been using both methods the way I was shown and the motivational training.

What I noticed is I taught the sit with no problem, the heeling sit after left step I had to use a little persuasion taught in two 2 minute sessions. The GSD 4.5 month old strong willed pup has it down, we heel I left step, verbal or not, she sits. Her heel is close and so is her sit.

The "down command" I've been using the treat hand held between the front paw. I feel like I'm still at square 1 in half. I put the food in place she downs and eats the food, she will maintain the down as long as the food keep coming. I say "down" then "good down Natasha".

I can now put a empty hand in position and she will down, until she check the hand. If I praise her, she lays on her side and want to mouth.

Now when I step out treats at shoulder high, I give the command to "down" she will repetitedly jump up and snap at my hands. I sit her and she looking at my hands. I give the "down" command her head turns side ways looking at my hands.

I'm in dispare she does not know the "down" command, she knows the hand signal food between her paw means lie down and eat.

Argah!!!, I'm realizing that I'm not a very good trainer it been 3 week. The old method would have given me a verbal down by now. She almost getting into her teens/hard headed stage, I feel I need to change to leash foot down method that Todd, mentioned.

She has learned to jump in and out of the jeep the other dogs taught that. But now she won't "come" after the ride she wants more. When the door comes open, at home, the adult dogs will jump out and wait to what to do. Natasha has to be leashed or waited out.

So she's deciding whats right for her, now. She knows the "come", she really quick at it if, there is no distraction. It was taught motivatinal but its not a command that she does not want to do, (unless after a ride) like the down.

Reality check, Is it ok, to use both methods?

Am I really that bad a trainer that I can't see progress even if its at a snails pace?

Should I be in that big a hurry to nip this in the bud before she in her teens???

I would continue to use the food lure, but I'd modify the way you mark the down. Right now, you're using the phrase "Good down, Natasha.". I think that's too long, plus it repeats the word "down" (she's already down, so why are you telling her "down" again?). Instead, as she is lowering her body into the down, the moment her elbows touch the ground and she's down, mark it with a single word such as "GOOD!", then release the treat. Make sure you use that same word to mark every correct behavior, and that you're saying it before releasing the treat.

I think, at this point, just getting her to perform the "down" action is good. Getting her to stay down once in position for longer and longer periods is something you can do in small increments over time, appropriate to her developmental stage. I'm sure her attention span right now is very selective, and is about equivalent to that of a gnat for some things.

Also, keep in mind that dogs are not primarily verbal communicators by nature. Visual cues are much more easily interpreted, so it's really pretty normal and okay that at this stage in the game, your pup is learning the hand signal but hasn't quite figured out the verbal cue yet. I say relax! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Lisa so you see my timing is off. And that is why she is not associating the command with the action? I could see that because there is a some lag time in between the command/praise and the treat.

Could it be that she is so hyper wanting the kibbles that she not even listening to the command. This dog has an intense food drive. She will search for kibbles the other two would not it had to be something meaty.

I'm wondering how long does this method take, its been 3 weeks. I guess the timing may have mixed her up.


My two other dogs got it within days or within 1 week, using the old method. I can still stomp my foot at a distance and they will down. Is that good thinking that you gonna get jerk down with a jesture. I don't know it depend on which side of the leash you'er on.

Don't forget she is 4.5 months old. For some reason the down command always seems to be the hardest. Try holding a piece of food, give her the down command with out giving her any cues such as bending over or dropping the food on the groung and just simply wait for her to exhibit the behavior you want. I taught my dog this way and once he grasped it he has downed ever since. Of course you have to be patient, it could take several minutes, but the key is as soon as she downs then reward her immediately. I believe she hasn't associated the action of going down with the verbal command. She is going down to the ground because you are giving her a cue by bending over with food. Dogs tend to learn cues from body language faster then verbal commands. Anyway, just an opinion of what has worked well for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks John

I'll give that a try, give the command and wait her out for a sit. And she may figure that out?

If I don't get some acknowledgment that lights going on in her little head by the middle of Sept, the black hood goes back on. And the leash comes out and I'm going back to Todds technique, as he stated its really not forcing the puppy down its coherencing her to a down.

I want to learn new and better ways but, her owner will be back by end of September the puppy needs to able to do a down on command. She is that smart its just getting her to want to do it.

Being a puppy, staying focus is a problem age, but I know how to get her attention. I'm just seeking another way.

If this doesn't work I can use motivation to teach her other things like "stay" and heel off leash.

Is this an OB dog or a Schutzhund dog? Personally I wouldn't worry about all that force stuff at this age. It should be fun, motivational & rewarding for the dog. The dog learns that the "work" is "play". Believe me there will be plenty of time later when she matures to give her corrections. My feeling is if you start to force them to do things they resent it and are not happy workers. All your doing with a pup right now should be imprinting behaviors. I wouldn't worry about long downs and a bunch of complicated routines. Let her be a puppy and grow up. I have 2 dogs and the first I was a little over exuberant to get him trained and unforunately it shows. My 2nd dog is still a puppy at 8.5 months old and has not been corrected for anything. Yet his obedience is snappy and fast, and he is having a great time. That's the picture I want. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> JMO

No John, she probably won't compete in any major trails, I beleive our hope for her is to be a Personal Protection Dog and pet. Good around kids and other animals. Who knows if she turn out maybe SchH, if her owner has the time and join a club.

But her basic OB is vital to controlling a little bitch like this. The owner is not that much a dog person she has walked and cared for my dogs at time but they are eager to please, even though they do push her around some.

I'll try to be patience but its hard knowing that at 6 month both of the other dogs had the basic 5-6 Ob commands down and she can too. But new ways and methods take time.

To feel some accomplishment I guess I'll work on the stay or tracking. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> The down can wait I don't want to steal wind out of her sail, like I did the softer female Rotti. My 5 yr old GSD male still acts like a puppy energy wise when he sees me or during execirses.

Makes sense. Some owners don't care about working the dog, they just want it to behave. Good luck with her. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's the way I'd recommend teaching the down. Get yourself a clicker and some treats. Do the lure her into a down with the treats, click, then give her one. Do that several times. Then sit down on the ground and make a "bridge" with your leg. Put your hand under your leg and lure her under your leg. The instant her belly hits the ground, click and treat. Do that several times, to get "down" in a different context. Then go back to standing up, and as you lure her say "down." Click/treat. You can alternate back and forth between the leg bridge and the lure, but in either case DO NOT say "down" until she is in the process of laying down. Then click/treat. Getting a down (no stay, just a down) shouldn't take more than a couple 5 minute sessions, maybe a day or two at most. Once you have the down, you can tell her "wait" and just wait a nano-second then click/treat. Gradually extend the time you ask her to wait. First just ask her to wait while you are bent over, then wait while you stand up, then a half step back (turning your body sideways to her will help her stay). Always click/treat BEFORE she starts to get up. You'll have to learn how to read her. Anyway, have fun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She's a puppy...it's not a life and death matter at this point!

Lisa - Instead, as she is lowering her body into the down, the moment her elbows touch the ground and she's down, mark it with a single word such as "GOOD.

Tara wrote - Do that several times, to get "down" in a different context. Then go back to standing up, and as you lure her say "down." Click/treat.

I like assoicating the command with the action. I'm taking all of this in but I will take and use what I think will work for this puppies personality. Right now we a are struggling through the down with treats she loves it and will down faithfully, but not on a verbal command only on the hand signal. Praising and petting brings about play mouthing, she just a puppy.

We are progressing but its slow, for me she loves it. Get to eat to lie down? Almost like mattress testing LOL!

Tara - I don't have a clicker, I might have to invest in one. But personally I've never put much stock in clicker training, but I hear it works.
I might try it???

Thanks John and Lisa I'll stick with it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />