Since the last discussion was closed, I would like to open a similar thread. I do not feel that Brad was pointing the finger at anyone with his comments about breeding. I think that there should be some regulation in breeding working GSD's in this country. If not the sch title, then something else that would establish breed worthiness. I myself bred several litters with my dog Feivel v.d. Wannaer Hohen who only had a BH. It wasn't because we didn't try or that the dog didn't have the talent or drive. I also agree that you can follow all the rules and still have crap dogs, but at least you are making the attempt. I personally feel that people that breed females that are untitled, are either doing so ONLY to make $$,, because the female cannot get the title or they are just too damn lazy to get their butts out there and WORK. There are PLENTY of people in this country that have a pretty tough time training properly, that do it so don't tell me it is too difficult. Schutzhund is work and that turns people off. Just my 2 c.

As I was trying to point out in the other thread, it isn't the SchH training that I was saying is difficult. The show rating is the problem in my neck of the woods. So, I shouldn't breed my female because she doesn't have the little V SG or G rating? Come on guys! The backyard breeders are the ones pocketing money... I could have bought a used truck or a NEW spiffy 4 dog trailer for what I LOST on my last litter. Not one penny came to me... that old greedy breeder that I am! But hey, I have one bitch out of the deal, and I didn't lose mine in surgery, so it could have been WORSE.

I have NO problems with proving my dogs, in fact I plan to co-own a bitch, and keep one male to raise myself from each breeding. But, the show rating will be done when there is a show available to show at! Same for the survey.

If you don't think people should breed with out a survey, show rating, AD, or title, simply don't buy from them. Easy solution! Don't assume that you are getting a better product though.

Just my side of the coin... I look forward to reading others...

To just breed a litter here and there, it would not be a problem, a real one to do the titles. But if one wants to develope and have a bloodline then in America for working dogs, it would be near imposiable to adhere to those requirments. And at the end of the day, it does not prove the whole picture. In fact there are many dogs that are titled just for the sake of the rules in Germany that the title that the dog has earned does not mean much. When buying a pup educate yourself and look at the whole picture, taking into account the size of the States.

I can tell you that when talking with some German dog breeders (working line) they wish they could breed without all of the title requirments. It simply takes too long, and too much work to title just for the sake of a title, and then find out that the bitch does not produce what you want. You have to start all over again. It is not as big of a deal over in Germany, as you have a schtuzhund club every few miles or so, but it is a major problem in the States. There are also dogs that are too strong that they sell abroad that they would love to breed, but cannot get a title on the dog in a reasonable amount of time. Helmut Raiser has some ideas to lift some of these requirements, as the gene pool is just to narrow, and lacks crediable producers.

Mike Williams wrote: I personally feel that people that breed females that are untitled, are either doing so ONLY to make $$,, because the female cannot get the title or they are just too damn lazy to get their butts out there and WORK. interesting thought...

Mike Wililams wrote: I myself bred several litters with my dog Feivel v.d. Wannaer Hohen who only had a BH. It wasn't because we didn't try or that the dog didn't have the talent or drive. So I am curious, which one do you fall into? Are you only breeding to make $$, Fievel can't get the title, or are you too lazy to do the work?

Todd,
As usual, you are showing everyone that you are the consumate smart ass. I said FEMALES, not MALES. The genitalia is the tip off Todd. I tried RELIGOUSLY for 3 1/2 years to title Feivel and spent several thousand dollars. I work a minimum of 10 hours per day, I have 2 children involved in sports, band and many other things and have still managed to get titles on 4 dogs in the 6 years I have been doing schutz. I lost $3000 on dogs last year. All of my bitches are titled and koered accept one Crok daughter that only has her sch title. I live 2 hours from my sch club and still manage to get there at least twice per month. You figure out the answer to your question. ALl 3 clubs near you have extended invitations for you to come and train.

Smartass??? Ok. If you say so.

Lee, I find the comment very germain to the discussion. Mike so eloquently put his feelings towards breeding untitled females. Especially when it is known I have 2 untitled females. he then says in the same post how he bred his untitled male.

Yes, Mike I was aware of your comment being towards females and not males. I am not really sure why you have the double standard. I can see why you would take offense though...I mean breeding a male you have worked so hard on, still unable to get titled. So, if I am to understand you correctly Mike, there are circumstances that can preclude someone from titling a dog and still breeding it? Is this correct? Seems strange to me that you are allowed to have circumstances in your life come up and preclude yourself from your own requirements.

I tried RELIGOUSLY for 3 1/2 years to title Feivel and spent several thousand dollars. So is the prerequisite to breed spending alot of time and money...if it doesn't work out breed anyway? I am not trying to be the 'consumate' smartass, just trying to follow your logic.

As far as the 3 clubs near me...they are all 2 hours away. 2 of which are in DSM. They have split off from one another, so until they figure out their own identities(as a club) I will continue to wait. The one in QC I was training at...as well as driving to Indianapolis to train with Mike Diehl. Then I had some life challenges and had to stop. But, enough about me. I was answering your thread...where you said

ANYONE who breeds untitled...

I took offense to that. As I am sure most people would. Then I asked you a simple question, that you are correct I knew the answer to. Which one of the categories did you fall into...and you got upset. I guess once again, it is ok for you to take offense to the comment about being lazy and money hungry, but not me...

interesting.

Or you go thru the hassle of waiting, working the dog then finding out they didn't produce what you wanted, bad mother, etc. Been there done that before. I recently got a really nice female, turning 3 soon, that yes I bred untitled, whereas previously I had stated that I never would breed an untitled dog. After seeing her work and she not even knowing sch., she was definately worth the gamble and will title after this litter. Why breed this litter? I'm going to find out what she produces first and see what kind of mother she will be before investing 2 more years in training then to find out she's a horrible mother or whatever. So think what you will, but that's my 2 cents.

Michael Taylor Rivers wrote I can tell you that when talking with some German dog breeders (working line) they wish they could breed without all of the title requirments. It simply takes too long, and too much work to title just for the sake of a title, and then find out that the bitch does not produce what you want. Maybe we don't like the rules, maybe the rules suck and are just BS, BUT if the Germans have to abide by those rules, shouldn't we?