While it is before my dog time, I was searching through some of the older BSP scores in the mid 70's. There were something like 47 V rated performances back then in the BSP. Today if we are luckey, we see about 10 or so. This is mind-boggling. On top of that the GSD was not so divided back then as it is today.

I also looked at most of the LGA's for this year, and guess what, maybe one or two V's in some of the LGA's but some LGA's do not even have a V rated dog to send to the BSP.

I have also looked at some of the dogs from back around then on tape, and I will say alot of them had real aggression. I think it is a grave injustice what has been done to the GSD.

While scores are not everything, the BSP is suppose to be the best of the best-looking at the scores, and alot of the dogs that I see coming from Germany the best is just not good enough.

The changes in the scoring from then to now is enormous; you can't compare them. Anything that bit and hung on was V back then (kidding, but only a little!). Today's performances must be MUCH more precise; the criteria is very different. That's what has pushed the sport dog in a certain direction - the dog that fits today's scoring criteria is a different dog from the 70's. Eventually, we'll see the scoring criteria swing back from its extremes, I think.

is this changing to the extreme based on more exact obedience in both the obedience and protection? were the judges in the past looking for less precise attention, focus, etc in routines and did not take off points for very minor infractions? were they simply looking for a "tough" dog that truly fought the helper, to the detriment of precise, calm and full grips, exact aus', etc.?
could one say that the very best dogs in the BSP of today are more well rounded because they have to be more precise and exact in ALL exercises?

I cannot speak on many of the dogs that were competing back then, but there were a few that I have seen on video, and these were strong tough dogs, that would bite for real.

I do agree that the scoring is a lot different; maybe this is where the problem lies in a way. While we have come foward in ob. and have developed methods that are not so crude in training, our protection has many flaws. We have become such great trainers that we can get almost anything through a title.

I do agree that the extreme phase is passing. I have seen judges score the higher fighting dogs, higher then the calm prey dog. But we still have a long way to go.

But today (so I have been told) there are dogs that earn titles that never could have back then. I am not sure if this is some kinda folklore among the older Germans, or if it is true. It would be nice to hear from some of the guys that have been around since then.(Maybe Ed could comment? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

But when you look at it from a scoring point of view, there are not still not many great dogs according to today's scoring.

I cannot say for the 70's but for the 80's the dogs were very strong in their bite work and points for slow outs and rebites weren't clicked off so fast. The decoys pushed the dogs hard but the quality of the dog was more greatly valued than the quality of the training. Remember that back in the 70's and early 80's we still had the 10pt scale of courage,hardness, and fighting instinct and anything less than a 10 didn't play well at the Bndssgr.
Grips weren't as critical either, and a strong dog which was working highly in fight drive can be recognized as often having a 3/4 grip that is very hard. Today that will often take a dog out of the V catagory (a damned mistake I believe).
Will things swing around again? I doubt it but at the same time...ya gotta judge something in a sport and the SchH is more of a sport than a breeding selection test these days, which represents the root of the shifting in judging I beleive.

This is what I have noticed. I also have some video's of the early to mid 80's dogs and alot of the dogs were biting 3/4 and a little chewy on the out, but these were the same dogs that were scroing big points. I rarley see a dog in protection today, as strong as the earlier dogs. They are out there, but there are not 30 or 40 in a big trial in Germany or here in the States.

What I find intresting that because DVG is an all breed training club, they normally do not bang you for the dog that does not bite all the way to the back molars, and see a dog that bites 3/4 as a dog with good fighting instincts, but the SV judges,(for the most part) see this as a fault today. I think that somewhere along the way, sight has been lost.

From what has been said so far, it seems that confrontational, true fighting dogs in Schutzhund have been discouraged in favor of dogs with fuller, calmer grips with more exact obedience. While it may be a shame that the the type of dogs from the past aren't scoring as high, does anyone think it's a good thing that the extreme judging has led to dogs trained to be more precise? Because of the extremely difficult scoring, does anyone think this makes both trainers and dogs more competitive, leading to a higher level of competition?

I am not sure. Really it looks like there are by far fewer trainers and top dogs that can take a dog to a great score. Before when there was 60 people competing, and 30 or 40 top dogs, I think that makes for a better competion. whne you are one of the 30 or 40, you a lot to beat to get to the top. When you have a great dog today, in most cases there are only maybe 15 dogs at most that you have to watch out for. I would have liked to see it.

I have been told by people from Germany that in the BSP today, there is only about 10 really strong dogs in a trial. In recent years there seems to be a tad more then in the mid 90's but not many. I think the sport has weakenend and so have our dogs in some ways.

You guys are bringing up a lot of questions for someone new to all this. Were the dogs truely more aggresive in the "good old days" or is it that today, the more aggresive dogs are being being selected for PPd and PSD as opposed to sport. Was the "average" SchH dog more social than the dogs of today, or is it just better(different)early sociolization and training today.

From what I have been told, the dogs were not as social as alot of dogs today. Remember back then, there was no need to pass or do a B title before your Sch tites, so a dog that was not a real social dog could easliy be trialed.