I just read on another board that someone's dog got injured because the decoy didn't "catch" the dog properly. He turned too late or something like that. Now can a top Schutzhund dog be expected to go after someone in real life if the handler is being attacked? If so are the risks of injury greated than in actual Schutzhund training. I mean the "bad guy" is probably not going to go easy on the dog and most likely doesn't know how to catch the dog. Just wondering <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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Originally posted by Danielle:
I just read on another board that someone's dog got injured because the decoy didn't "catch" the dog properly. He turned too late or something like that. Now can a top Schutzhund dog be expected to go after someone in real life if the handler is being attacked? If so are the risks of injury greated than in actual Schutzhund training. I mean the "bad guy" is probably not going to go easy on the dog and most likely doesn't know how to catch the dog. Just wondering <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

When a person is talking about "catching" a dog they are refering to the decoy who is wearing a hard sleeve that is used to have the dog bite. This sleeve allows the decoy to have the dog bite him without feeling pain; thus allowing him to manipulate the dog alot easier then if he wore nothing, thus he has better control over the dog's power, and if he does not get out of the way can casue an impact for the dog involvong the sleeve and his body, coupled by any arm strength the decoy may have. He will be able to work against the dog with relitave ease.

I do not know of anyone that does not have a slleve on that can present thier arm, let the dog bite it, and then run with the dog in fromt of them for a few yards. The absence of equipment will greatly reduce the chance of injury to a dog when bitng a fleeing person, or a man who would charge at the dog.

As far as a top schutzhund dog bitng a person for real, this can be expected but most top sport dogs are not geared to bite people for real.

Sadly, when we ask our dogs to lay their lives on the line for us in real life, it happens. The reason they avoid catching a dog improperly in SchH is just because of what you mention here. In SchH we humans have control. In the real world, the suspect, aggressor, whatever doesn't bring his arm up as a target, or turn perfectly...etc. We risk the dogs life to buy us time.

You should watch some of the different "cops" type tapes out there. I have seen some really interesting bitework on zombie-like cracked out suspects <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> This one dude had a Mal hanging off his shoulder and just kept on walking.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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Originally posted by Danielle:
can a top Schutzhund dog be expected to go after someone in real life if the handler is being attacked? If so are the risks of injury greated than in actual Schutzhund training.

No, you can't be sure a schutzhund trained dog will step up if you are attacked. The training scenario in schutzhund is very specific, and it is NOT personal protection training. Some dogs would certainly do it; others would be asking the bad guy where his sleeve is.

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Originally posted by Danielle:
I mean the "bad guy" is probably not going to go easy on the dog and most likely doesn't know how to catch the dog.

The dog under a real attack is certainly at much greater risk. We don't do schutzhund with the intent to injure our dogs - thus the padded sticks and deflected hits, much more of an APPEARANCE of threat than actual physical threat. That said, the sch dog on the long bite is coming at full speed from a long distance; the collision can be a train wreck if your helper doesn't have good timing.

Originally posted by Sch3FH2:
But we condition the sport dogs to these scenarios week in and week out, til it is no longer viewed as a legitimate threat by the dog. Since nothing bad every really does happen to the sport dog, he overcomes any initial wariness and learns to enjoy the game and to view it as such. This is the problem with our sport. The dogs no longer have to work in fight drive to get a V rating. I have a friend that has a great dog, but it was worked in prey and a strong decoy worked him last week, and sticked him harder then normal. The dog came off the sleeve and was a bit unnerved. My point is that this dog if it had not been worked by this decoy he would have most likley made it though a trial and get great points.

That's true, I've seen the Cops episode she's talking about, it was a white guy with a mustache, right? Even if the dog was solid and he didn't stop the suspect there's always exceptions. I'm sure cops occasionally run into dinosaur suspects, but how many? Statistically it's very rare to see what you saw in that Cops episode. In my opinion . . .

Although, I don't think you would've seen that if the dog didn't just hit the arm area and hold. He should've just lit into the man. This might've been a training problem or handler, it's hard to say. It could be a million things.

I've also met this Gunsmith that owned a gunshop. He was a Marine Sniper and he said that they were taught to break the jaw of the dog once their hand entered it's mouth. (Just what I heard, I have no proof) He said it would only work if it was a Shepherd, Doberman type breed. Rotts, etc it wouldn't work. This alone though is very hard he said. It would take an extraordinary man to perform something like that. If you come in contact with Rambo, then your time is up basically, lol. So it goes back to the exception theory.

I think the problem is less with SchH, than the way it is being applied. The people that I knew in the "old days" that did SchH didn't see the III as an end point, but a step along the way. After the dog was titled it was moved in to PP or PSD work. SchH was never seen as an end point, it was foundation training and the dog moved on to other "work" once it was titled. Those dogs had to be stronger because the prey only dogs wouldn't be able to move past doing just the prey work.