In the last few months I have learnt a lot about the virtues of the GSD and the various GSD types (American, czech, ddr etc). I also got the impression from this board that there are fewer working dobes.

Would anyone care to objectively compare dobes with gsd's. What are dobes like ?. Specifically what are their strengths and weaknesess compared to gsd's. (I am assuming they have some strengths <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

Dobermann don't compare to German Shepherds. It's like asking the difference between a 1986 Toyota MR2 and a 2002 Porsche 911 turbo. Ya, they are both small, two seaters. . .both cars, but there is no comparison.

GSD is to Porsche, as Dobermann is to MR2.

Porsche, there is no substitute.

I think VanCamp is a bit biased.
It really depends what you're comparing.
A good Dobie is in my book alot better than a good GSD -its just way harder to find one, especially in the States.
Dobies are smarter and more sensitive, so less forgiving of a stupid owner. They are longer lived than GSDs and healthier usually.
They are a breed that has almost been distroyed by bad breeders and so aren't really used much anymore for police work. Also most great dobies are smarter than most cops! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Anyway, in Germany one can still find an awesome Dobermann and I have often been shocked by the extent of their capabilities. We are talking rock steady dogs here. Not the nervous run of the mill Dobie that acts like he wants to kill you and then runs away as soon as you take a step forward. Its hard these days to find a truly 'brave' dobermann and boy can they be expensive. But they are a sight to see...
Still, Dobermans are NOT used in Germany for police work anymore. The GSD has long been proving itself a more dependable breed. But that may very well be because for over a decade now no body can breed their GSD if it has no working title, where as the Dobermans never got that 'fighting' chance.

:rolleyes:

Continue please?

Jerry:
Why the downgrade <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ?
Care to elaborate ?. Thankx

Toyota MR2 is very kind on Campers part. I would have said Skoda or the really good one's a Lada.

Allow me to quote Philipp Gruenig,

I saw hundreds travel this road in confusion -- wander about. Only a few found the right path. No one directed his neighbor. The man was a legend in the breed.

Now to modern day and the bullskavikskie being typed out here.

The Doberman is a health nightmare. Hearts half the size they should be. Blood, well they hold the VW record for all time in my mind and I am not talking the Volkswagen.

Cancer is the Dobes middle name be it Skin, Internal Organs or Bone.

Or how about those Doberman Kidneys or should I be saying Kidney. To much inbreeding caused this little jewel to become a dominent factor in Dobes and the genes.

What a crock trying to equate a dobe to a gsd. I wish this was true as my first love in this nut game of ours was the dobe and believe me I bred a few. Anyone want to see those that I bred just pick up Anna K's TFH book The World of Dobermans and scan through and see a few of mine.

I have traveled the whole world to train, trial and talk with real dog breeders and I have only seen two dobes that were close to acceptable and I am saying only close as if they had been any good they would have been on a plane with me heading to the Great White North.

We owe a lot to Germany for great Working Dogs but the Doberman did not make it past the first turn.

Dobes today are very weak in nerve. Character is unsound for work. They are members of the Dogs against bad weather union and will not work in the cold or rain.

Last if you do find one that is worth working on. Just as you get the pooch working it ups and dies on you.

Camper was not biased in his comments. He was telling the truth.

Jerry

 Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Cudahy:

Now to modern day and the bullskavikskie being typed out here.

The Doberman is a health nightmare. Hearts half the size they should be. Blood, well they hold the VW record for all time in my mind and I am not talking the Volkswagen.

Cancer is the Dobes middle name be it Skin, Internal Organs or Bone.

Or how about those Doberman Kidneys or should I be saying Kidney. To much inbreeding caused this little jewel to become a dominent factor in Dobes and the genes.

What a crock trying to equate a dobe to a gsd.

Dobes today are very weak in nerve. Character is unsound for work. They are members of the Dogs against bad weather union and will not work in the cold or rain.

Last if you do find one that is worth working on. Just as you get the pooch working it ups and dies on you.

Jerry

OK you guys,

I was gonna stay out of this one. I have owned Dobermanns since I was 5 years old, some really great dogs and some normal dogs. You can't EQUATE them to GSD's just as you can't compare them to Mals Jerry. I own all 3 breeds BTW. All strong working lines --all different, as they should be.

If you want a Dobermann to be like a GSD then get a Freakin' GSD. I get more flack for my Malinois than I ever did for my Dobes. I think Dobes and Mals run on the same kind of thinner nervous system. Does this mean they have BAD nerves?? NO. Just different than the GSD.

Health problems abound in the GSD as a whole, I would say more so than in the Dobe. I have never heard of small hearts in Dobermanns, I have heard of cardio which is exactly the OPPOSITE of small. The hearts enlarge and basically pop one day. This is also a huge problem in Boxers and Rotts. (I also was a vet tech for 15 years) GSD's have more joint and skeletal problems in my experience but I wonder how much of this is from external factors and not just genes. (a whole new topic)

As for VWD, how many people test the GSD for this?? It is a problem in GSD's as well as Dobes. I just don't believe it is tested for. In all fairness, I don't know one single Dobe that has had a problem with bleeding, even when proven to have the disease. Most Dobes go thru an earcrop as pups and if there is a bleeding problem you will certainly see it there!!

I have never heard of cancer of being a huge problem in Dobermanns, where do you get your statistics Jerry?? I do know Boxers get a plethora of cancers and Rotts are prone to bone cancer and lymphosarcoma. I don't think there is any more kidney disease in Dobes than any other breed out there, although Shelties and Min. Schnauzers seem to be affected more than most other breeds in my experience at the vet hospital.

The Dobes from my bloodline have a coat more similar to the Rottweiler, sure is looked down on by the "show crowd" but my dogs work no matter what the weather. I live in the Midwest and we have our share of cold and rain--no problem here.

I do agree it's hard to find a good working Dobe, the gene pool is small and very few breeders have devoted themselves to saving the good lines. There are some out there but as a former Dobermann breeder I gotta say--most people, even experienced working dog people don't have enough finesse to handle the difference between the Dobe and the GSD. I say that with the highest respect to all involved. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Numbers Cindy is what continues a well thought out program of breeding.

You yourself are saying that there simply are not enough good Dobes so then the ability to enhance a Genetic Vigor is greatly deminished.

I am the very first one to agree with your Mal analogy about nerves. It is a problem within the breed without question but when you factor in the overall numbers there are a large number of good solid mals in the gene pool, world wide.

There are just not enough serious breeders in the mal system willing to do major culls in litters. Even worse, do not know which one's to cull. Better to sell and make money is the perverted thought pattern. IMO

Then again I feel the same about all breeds and culling out the bad ones.

Mals though are no different than any of the others that become the flavour of the decade in the dog world.

They are being mass produced at the moment for two reasons that both will eventualy cause this breed to to also become withdrawn as a solid working dog.

The dominence of the Working Sport Malinois World everywhere and the over breeding of dogs who have questionable Peds.

Second the current war efforts and the military buying up as much as they can not only for active service but also now the Breeding Programs that is taking place in the military.

Remember what dog was the favorite of the US Marines in WWII and highlighted by Capt. Putney D.V.M., USMC (RET). "Dobe's"

You have Dobes with heavy coats so then I will bet your dogs are if you could get back in your peds that far, have a strong influence of old style working Beauceron infused.

The Beauceron played a big part in the make up of the earlier Dobes.

Small hearts are something that I have seen quite often. In fact it was one of the reasons I stoped breeding dobes. You mention the other side of the coin and enlarged hearts but none the less they are a cardio problem as agreed in your statement only we have both seen the north and south poles on this one.

By the way Cindy. Come up with a real good working Dobe prospect that you are willing to let go. Call me. Like I said, first love and never forgotten.

You are so right. Want a dog that works like a GSD, get one and the same for the rest and knowing the diffence in how to program each to work out.

That is another thread.

Jerry

 Quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Cudahy:
Numbers Cindy is what continues a well thought out program of breeding.


They are being mass produced at the moment for two reasons that both will eventualy cause this breed to to also become withdrawn as a solid working dog.


Jerry

I agree Jerry with almost everything in your last post.......sorry if this is going a little off topic but these two statements I have quoted seem to contradict each other??

Am I reading this wrong?

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Cindy,

I see Jerry's point on both ends. We have seen the problems of mass breeding of dogs, particularly dogs not suited for work. It has led to the problems in all POPULAR breeds. People breeding for a buck.

The flip side to the coin is breeds with small breeding pools. If there are few individuals available to breed there is going to be an increase in the problems they carry geneticly. This same problem can occur in lines that are over line bred on a few individuals. Yes there are a lot of available Dobes, but a small breeding population of good dogs. Yes line breeding has been used to improve dogs in a line, over done it creates problems.

In my selected breed we have examples of both problems. The BRT has a small breeding pool to start with, leading to breeding to what is available. In some cases dogs are being line bred on dogs that should not have been bred in the first place. The other half to that problem is the isolation of the breeding populations. If there is nothing close, you breed to what is available. I am looking at having to travel a mimum of 1500 miles to breed to what I want and that may not even be a workable breeding. If not I am looking at potentialy having to go from South to North across the country or even in to Canada to get to the males I want. It would be much easier to select a lower quality male and stay home.