I have two questions that I hope are reasonable.

1. I've mentioned several times that my pup is a West German show bloodline but according to Tom Rose, has excellent drive, so I will start him next week on basic Schutzhund training(obedience and tracking). My question is this - does his drive come from cross-breeding with working lines somewhere in the past? His parentage has a lot of Schutzhund titled dogs.

2. If I am successful in Schutzhund (SchH III- I hope) with this male pup, would I be giving more ball drive strength to breed him to a very strong working bitch - or would this be a terrible thing to do?

I would appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks

Doyle

If you are breeding to improve the breed, I suggest not ever breeding a show dog.
If you breed show with working lines the best your gonna get is a possible mediocore (believed to be spelled wrong) dog that wont look show quality and wont have the genetics to do serious work.
I can hear the show people already screaming in my head....just my 2 cents though!!!
:rolleyes:

I think that you should ask Tom for an evaluation. If he feels the dog is breed worthy I think he will tell you. If not, I think he will tell you that also. If you are going to breed him you will do better breeding to a working line bitch with lines that would compliment the weakness your dog may have.

I did last week. Mr. Rose, two instructors and the class of students to become instructors looked and worked the pup for over an hour.

Tom Rose said the this "West German Show" pup had very strong drive and has excellent potential for Schutzhund. Thus, I'm starting the pup in obedience and tracking this week under their instruction.

I'm trying my best to understand the views here. If the view is that the only worthwhile GSD is one trained for Police work or professional protection, then I can understand. I certainly think this is a very myopic view, but at least I can understand it.

However, I thought Schutzhund was something to strive for. The German Shepherd Club of America Working Dog Association web site discusses Schutzhund quite a bit. Is this a different Schutzhund than that of the parentage of this pup? As I said, there are many Sch III and of five generations, only seven dogs are not Schutzhund titled.

So, why is it, please, that Schutzhund titles seem to mean something for working dogs but yet not a West German "show" line that has genetics like this?

I understand and agree with the view of the American German Shepherd Show line, but how in the @#*$ can the parentage I've mentioned be so bad that this line of dog should not be bred in the future???

Please, someone explain - without generalizations, but please address my point above.

Thanks

Doyle

Doyle, here's my take on your post.

If your pup works out and you get her titled, she has sound health, then you should breed her if that's your goal.

Others have different views and we all differ. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I have a pup that her line is european, she hopefully will turn into a bitch that should be bred to better the breed. (my dream) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Enjoy your pup and take advantage of all the knowledge of Tom Rose and his team.
Good luck and enjoy your pup. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The fact remains that most show line dogs, do not have the drives, or nerves to withstand the training of high level competiton. Being that your dog has a titled heritage does not mean that all of the dogs in the pedigree were great workers. Within the show German Shepherd Dog there is a circle of judges,(in Germany) that will pass a dog in a trial , if he is a good looking dog, so that the dog will get Sch3. Is this a real title, most likley not. They do this so that they can breed this un-workable critters as the system in Germany dictates that the dog must have a title to breed, the value of a dog is higher if it is Sch3. It is all about money. There is also a big difference in working ability, a SCH3 259 and a 280 or higher.

Now I will say that I have seen a few show dogs that were of good working quality, and you may very well have one....Tom Rose a very respected trainer, but your dog could be a gentic throw-back, and doubtfull, will produce himself. But I have seen it done. The only line that I have seen in the Show circle that produced good working was Fedor Arminas when bred to working lines.

As far as the GSDCA-WDA goes, it is the same style of Schutzhund as the SV........judging as I have been told may not be a s sharp but they operate under the same rules.

You have to decide what your in it for. If it is to make a buck and sell pets then you are going in the right direction.
Show lines dont have the genetic engine to do the serious work....what the breed is meant to be. Look at the first GSD...it looks nothing like the show standard. Thats just looks. Now the show people bred all the genetic drives and temperment out by sacaficing it to gain SV conformation standard.
I think there are enough pets in the world.
The Schutzhund titles you speak of in the dogs pedigree are there for one reason for show people. It's a big temperment test for breeding. They have to do it to sell(pups included) or show their dog in a working class ring. Most show would tell you, if being truthful, they would not title the dogs if they didnt have to.
I will admit there are some excellent trainers who can train a show dog to get by, and they do of course. When in fact the dog has no idea what he is doing. Also ask for their scores. There are alot of shady things that go on to get titles...unfortunately.
This is just my opinion that I will not waiver in. I believe the working line structure is better for working as well.
I have delt with show dogs. I also took a VP1 male to train for a well known show kennel. I compare a show dog to the stereotypical blond.(no offese to the ladies - I said stereotypical!!) There is nothing in there...it's kinda creepy if you ask me. You look into the eyes and it's just empty. Crap temperment, nervy, spooky, very soft.
Just my 2 cents yet again...I think we are at 4 cents now though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Crabtree, thanks for your reply.

However, I remain puzzled regarding how Schutzhund titles can apparently mean different things for different bloodlines of GSD.

You know, when I trained and showed my mare, I showed her in Western Pleasure and we had some accomplishments. Yet, when she was a two year and three year old she twice earned conformation titles placing her in the top ten in the world. I did not see the "show" people criticize me for taking a conformation show mare and earning some recognition in the Western Pleasure events. Nor did I see the Western Pleasure people criticize me for taking a conformation show mare and competing in riding events.

Why? Because she had the genetics for BOTH! Why can't that be the case for GSD?

Doyle

GSD56,

Sorry... but that's not the dog I have. Further, why would someone with the experience and reputation of Tom Rose tell me to continue? They didn't say anything about them having to play games to get this pup qualified. They said that this pup has the temperament, drive etc. for Schutzhund. Not only Tom Rose but many others said that as well.

I'm so inexperienced at dogs, I feel stupid countering with you. However, I'm going to ask Tom to be VERY frank with me and tell me whether these games you mention will be required for this pup to succeed. If so, I'm done. I will have a well behaved pet.

I will tell you what he says. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

schutzhund titles in a pedigree look nice, but in my opinion, they don't mean a lot.
they man that someone spent time and money training and competing.
what would mean something is what were the scores, where and why did the dogs lose points, how often were they competed and how many of those trials did the dog do well in?
so do some research. try to find out what the dogs in your pup's pedigree have produced, what the dog's in your pup's pedigree were like. talk to people who know bloodlines.
and besides, in my opinion, your pup is way to young to really be considered a breeding prospect.