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Genetics vs. Environment
#61201 - 02/21/2003 11:27 AM |
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That Akita thread yesterday got me thinking:
How much of a dog's temperament is influenced by genes, and how much by environment? Not having read Scott & Fuller's work and just going from my own observation and experience, it would be impossible for me to give a number, like 50/50 or 70/30. I think it is very complicated and highly variable.
For example, there are those in the Labrador community who say that a well-bred Lab is the kind of dog you could beat with a rubber hose every day, and he'll still be happy to see you. Any instance of a fearful, dominant, possessive, or territorial Lab, they immediately chalk up to genes, with no consideration given for environment. I'm not sure I buy this. I think environment plays a huge role, though I don't doubt for a second the role that genes play.
Care to share your thoughts on the subject?
Lisa & Lucy, CGC, Wilderness Airscent
Western Oregon Search Dogs |
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Re: Genetics vs. Environment
[Re: Lisa Swanston ]
#61202 - 02/21/2003 01:48 PM |
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This is question that could be debated forever. I do think, unfortunately, that to get a good working dog the genetics have to be there. If the dog has great genetics, a bad trainer,bad experience or novice owner can ruin a dog for life (that once had great genetic potential.) So to answer your question, IMHO you can ruin what's there but can't add to it. It's kind of a bummer, but that's the way it goes. I think everyone who has trained a working dog has ruined one or two dogs before you learn. I'm on my fourth and am still learning, but I improve every dog. When you do get it right it's very rewarding though.
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Re: Genetics vs. Environment
[Re: Lisa Swanston ]
#61203 - 02/21/2003 02:16 PM |
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Everyone has an opinion on this I think. Either with dogs, people and everything else.
I feel genetics -generally- controls 70% of everything.
If this wasn't the case, show dogs and non-working lines/breeds could do much better in protection work or sport.
You will always find cases where environment mattered most but if you took humans and selectively breed them with top genetics I feel they could be in any enviornment and the majority of the time still achieve.
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Re: Genetics vs. Environment
[Re: Lisa Swanston ]
#61204 - 02/21/2003 02:35 PM |
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I hear what you both are saying. I wasn't thinking neccessarily in terms of working ability/drive, but more along the lines of socialization/fear.
Lisa & Lucy, CGC, Wilderness Airscent
Western Oregon Search Dogs |
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Re: Genetics vs. Environment
[Re: Lisa Swanston ]
#61205 - 02/21/2003 02:36 PM |
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With beating a lab, here's one way of looking at it.
You could do that with most labs and it would take -longer- to break, than another breed like a Rottweiler in that area. If the right buttons were pushed, of course it would break but that's true of anything. Because of the genetics being so strong a breed like this would take much longer for it turn on the owner.
This is simply just because the temperaments of the breeds are so different.
And yes,I live with a Lab and have had a Golden. So I see what the person is trying to say, unless they're saying it couldn't be done. One can do anything in regards to tearing something down mentally. It would just take more.
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Re: Genetics vs. Environment
[Re: Lisa Swanston ]
#61206 - 02/21/2003 02:39 PM |
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I think if dogs were not selectively bred, like humans are not as well, then environment is much more important.
The environment will always be a factor, but if the genes are there it will be less of one.
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Re: Genetics vs. Environment
[Re: Lisa Swanston ]
#61207 - 02/21/2003 02:47 PM |
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But doesn't the critical period for socialization to humans have a lot of significance? For example, take a Lab puppy that has not been socialized to humans during the critical period for socializtion, and a puppy from the same litter who has, and will you not see a huge difference in how they respond to strangers as adult dogs? The same genetic material, different environmental influences.
Lisa & Lucy, CGC, Wilderness Airscent
Western Oregon Search Dogs |
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Re: Genetics vs. Environment
[Re: Lisa Swanston ]
#61208 - 02/21/2003 02:56 PM |
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Yes I think it matters but for dogs with solid genetics more mistakes can be made. Ones with bad genes, socialization and everything will be more critical.
I think some labs that have had bad socilization and things still seem to be better at being around things than other breeds.
If you took two clones, one with more socilization will be better but the other won't suffer -as much- unless the dog is bad genetically.
So for me, the answer lies right in the middle. You're right and also I see what that person was trying to say. Solid genes go a long with or without a lot of mistakes made early on.
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Re: Genetics vs. Environment
[Re: Lisa Swanston ]
#61209 - 02/21/2003 08:48 PM |
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I heard this phrase somewhere, possibly a Leerburg video (?)
"bad genetics load the gun but environment pulls the trigger"
Wherever I heard it, it does make alot of sense. That said, I think it also depends on the individual dog as to how much "bad environment" it would take to "pull the trigger".
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Re: Genetics vs. Environment
[Re: Lisa Swanston ]
#61210 - 02/21/2003 09:46 PM |
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