Let me start by saying I feel like a real idoit right about now. You know I made that post about motivational training. And I do think it has a purpose only because I apparently had very submissive dogs over the years. After spending hours and hours reading all the articles and post. I just realized that I truly do have a serious problem. It crept up on me without me realizing it. If you recall I ask about what the deal was with the choke collar, and by passed it with the prong. Well I had to get out of the motivational crap because my 4 1/2 month old Chocl. lab just wasn't listen to me anymore, and his mouthing turned into battles with me when he wanted to play. So after reading all this GREAT material, I realized that I do have a dominent dog. Guess I just thought because hes a "lab" he just Mr. Loveable. I read the article on dominence and have just a couple of questions. My dogs crate has always been in my room, next to my bed. Should I move it now out of the room? And what the heck do I do when I am walking through the living room and he starts jumping on me and biting my clothes? Should I keep him leashed at all times for easier corrections? I got brave today after reading the articles and when he jumped on me barking and biting I pulled him off the ground, I weigh 125 he already weighs 50, and looked him in the face and loudly yelled NO BITE!!!!!!!!!He came at me harder. I did this several times and finally just snached him up and put him in his crate. His lip was curled up while trying to bite me while I was holding him taking him upstairs. I am such a wuss and never yell at him, maybe I scared him? When I took him out, I TRYED to do some obedience with him and he was CRAZY..(first time with the prong) Just biting the leash, rolling on the ground and would not do a darn thing. Also, he plays with my cats, but I noticed lately he has been getting rougher. They have claws and make him squeal, but he just goes back for more. Last but not least, any video purchase suggestions from leerburg would be great. You know I feel so stupid that I didn't see this comming. I am almost embarrased to talk about it. But I would be more embarrased with scars on my face!! Sorry I have so many questions. I appreciate your help.

Darleen,
I salute you!
I'm going to go on record here and say you are smarter than 99.7% of dog owners out there. Most folks have a very difficult time changing their view of what causes their dogs behavior, and becuase of that, they can't zero in on a training method that will work on their dog.
I'm predicting that with a little advice and trial and error, you're going to do a fine job with your dog- and that's a rare thing in the non competitive dog world.
First video I'd get would be "Your puppy- 8 weeks to 8 months" which is video #120

Good for you Dar, The only thing I have to add is don't use the crate as punishment. That is puppy's safe place. Best of luck

There are 2 videos, the basic training 8-8 and then just basic training. I resolved the digging, barking, chewing, housebreaking issues. With the early motivation in the beginning he has a strong sit, strong down and I can walk him without being drug down the street. Of course his attention span is as long as his pee-pee, but hes just a pup. So which one should I get, I know I should get both, but I can't at one time. (4) kids doesn't leave much money left for me..hahah So consider the video purchase done (when I decide which one). Thanks ya'll, I think with a little advice and the videos I will do OK too, but its going to be a rough road to hoe. This is defenitly a new experience for me. If you don't mind me asking questions some times, I'll sure appreciate the advice. In the rural area of the south that I live, half the people have less brains than my dog let alone a qualified dog trainer. Hey, I am a born southerner, I can say that!!!haha My oldest boy (18) said I should raise the dog the way I raised them, "I didn't turn out so bad did I"?

Dar,
You think he's dominant because he doesn't listen to you, is crazy on leash, and likes to jump on you and bite? I'm sure that 99% of Lab owners would agree, this is all pretty typical and par for the course for a Lab puppy. Labs are not a breed that are known for expressing dominance toward humans. Heck, they usually don't care much about dominance with other dogs, for that matter.

To me, it sounds like you have a very healthy, rambunctious Labrador puppy who simply needs a more structured environment. Establishing yourself as a pack leader is more about controlling your dog's access to resources, from food and toys, to which rooms they are allowed in, and when, than it is about force or intimidation. Establishing a daily routine of crate time, play time, meal time, and training time, where you control when each thing happens, is really important. Also, young Labs need exercise on a daily basis. Retrieving is a great way to exercise your Lab (water retrieves are even better, if you have access to a safe area for this).

I agree that all dogs, regardless of breed, have certain needs that must be met, and have certain drives that are common to dogs in general, but I would be more willing to accept rank (dominance) issues as a cause of certain behavior problems in a young working line GSD than I would in a young Labrador.

Should you move the crate out of your room? In my opinion, I don't think that's neccessary. What I would suggest instead is to have two crates. One that stays in the main part of the house where you spend most of your day (living room, family room, wherever the family is most likely to be), and one in your bedroom. At night, the puppy should sleep in the crate in your bedroom. When you get up in the morning, take the puppy out to potty, feed him, play with him for a little while, then crate him for a while in the crate in the main part of the house (he shouldn't have any vigorous excercise within an hour of eating). You need to set aside time for the sole purpose of exercising him (however long it takes to tire him out), and another chunk of time for the sole purpose of training him (15 minutes is fine), every single day. When you cannot directly supervise him, he goes in his crate.
Keep a drag line on him when he's out of his crate, so you can redirect his behavior if he's pestering the cats or getting into something. Baby gates are a good way to control access to different parts of the house, as well as giving kitty a place to escape from puppy.
Overall, establishing a schedule and controlling his access to everything is your best, first step to dealing with his behavior. There is no one magic bullet that's going to suddenly stop him from jumping up or playbiting. Firm, fair, consistent obedience training is the only way you're going to solve this.

Lisa, I have done all those things, I have a very regimented schedule, which means the dog does. He couldn't have anymore of a structured enviroment than he has, from when he eats to waking up, to going to bed to being crated. I play ball with him 3 times a day (20 min each time) at the same time everyday and I walk everyday at 6:30am 1.5 miles which he comes with me. Because of the labs lax reputation is the reason I have this problem in the first place, I wrote everything off to "oh hes just being a puppy". But when you pick a puppy up like I did and it trys to bite your face with a curled up lip and won't back down, ITS A PROBLEM..lab or not. I have 4 kids with lots of children comming in and out of this house, I can not and will not have a dog I can't trust. I feed him, protect him,love him, exercise him and play with him. Every need of his is forfilled by me only. If he's going to bark, snap and bite me then one of two things is going to happen, I am going to win, or I am going to win. This was not puppy play, and it wasn't the first time he did it to me, like I said, until I read about dominence and aggressive behavior (going first through doors, taking my spot on the bed, rushing past me down the steps) I didn't realize that little by little this is what he was doing to me. I was just an easy target for him. My blinders are off now and I need to stay focused on ending this problem. And with the good advise from those of you like yourself who have shown a geninue interest in wanting to help me and can't say thank you enough.

Dar,

 Quote:

But when you pick a puppy up like I did and it trys to bite your face with a curled up lip and won't back down, ITS A PROBLEM..lab or not.

I'd like to post a few quotes from Ed's article on dominance:

"Many people, including experienced dog trainers, misunderstand dominance in dogs. These people feel that dominance always needs to be dealt with through force.........In most cases this is also the wrong approach."

"No one likes to get bit. I look at the scars on the arms of many of my friends and consider myself lucky. I have never had a serious dog bite, yet I have handled some very dominant aggressive animals. When I ask about these scars, I always get the same answer: “I made a mistake with that dog.” Getting “dog bit” comes down to making mistakes in how we handle our dogs in a given situation."

"Controlling dominance means establishing yourself as the pack leader........The easiest way to begin this process is through obedience training. Understanding praise and correction is going to go a long way towards establishing a working relationship and a bond between you and your dog."

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you've got the puppy on a consitent schedule, are in control of his environment, and have been obedience training him, and you still feel that this is a dominance aggression problem, you need in person professional help. A good trainer can help you determine the best way to correct this problem; more so than all the books, internet articles, or videos can provide.

Unless you bought this puppy from a pet store or a backyard breeder, dominance aggression is not typical Labrador temperament, no matter how lax you may have been with him.

Good luck. Keep us posted on your progress.

I will keep you posted. Thanks for your input. I wish soliciting professional help was on option, but Bubba who ties his dog to a truck bumper is about the mentality in the surrounding area I live, not to mention that I really think with consistancy among the family & proper obedience training I will do fine. And Will, thanks for your words of encourgement. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dar,
I've been thinking about your situation a bit, and it occurs to me that while we can sometimes generalize about breeds, i.e. "Labs are this, Labs are that", there is variation among individual dogs. For example, a person who buys a pup from field lines, expecting to have a nice couch potato is going to be in for a big surprise. Some Labs are extremely high energy, while others adapt to life as a couch potato with amazing ease, and of course there are degrees inbetween. For some Labs, 20 minutes of retrieving doesn't even make a dent in their energy level, while for others, that works just fine.

If you could please humor me, and tell me some things, I might be able to give you some feedback that would be more helpful to you. We can take this off list if you would like, and I can point you to some resources specifically geared toward Labradors.

First, where did you get the puppy? What is the purpose of the breeder's breeding program? Field trials/hunt tests, conformation, pet, to make a few extra bucks, etc.? What were your expectations for this puppy (family pet, hunting, ???)?
Second, did you get to meet the parents? If so, what were their temperaments like? If not, why?
Third, at what age did you bring the puppy home?
Fourth, what techniques have you used up to this point in dealing with the puppy's undesireable behaviors?

Thanks I would be happy to answer these questions, because they are very important. Puppy aquisition goes like this. I would call this person more of an aquaintance. I was given the puppy as a sympathy gesture. My dog of 14 years died just the month before and she "saved me the puppy". She said she got sick of seein me crying on my morning walk. I took it, but since I was going to adopt a pup from the shelter, I figured this was better because I knew the pups parents and he was free.

So the parents. Dad was a yellow, mom was a choc. The father, is real layed back (3 years old), well trained, and just as friendly as can be. The mother on the other hand is a little more aloof, but never the less very friendly (this was her first litter, she is 3 also.) She is very protective of her property (I mean outside house area). A stranger can walk right up to the house and dad will lick ya to death, the mom on the other hand will bark and stand away, until her owners come out, then she will greet you with kisses. I should mention that both of them have OFA hips and elbows/eyes cert also, and I have the pups (Toby) AKC papers. She is stubborn, yet pretty well trained but it took them alot of work to get her there. She is VERY strong willed, but from what they say has never really shown any signs of being overly dominent, but never the less would classify her as that. (So Toby is more like her). I went by to talk to them yesterday. (I never really asked any questions, figured I would be rude if I did, they were giving me a puppy.) And I knew the parents.

Expectations: For Toby to be my friend. A member of the family. Go on the family outings with us, hiking, fishing, to the lake etc. I work from home so he is with me all day, I want him to be my companion. I want to take him with me whenever possible (which means campgrounds ect.)

Dealing with Toby: Well up until this point I didn't do anything to deal with Toby. I just let him jump all over me and bite me basically. I just figured he would outgrow it. (sorry I know that was stupid) just being honest. When he was laying on the bed I just sat somewhere else. When he ran ahead of me barreling down the steps I didn't think anything of it, when he would jump around biting the heck out of me I would open the door and let him out and play ball with him. In hindsight I guess I was rewarding him for bad behavior. I was just trying to let him get his energy out. I am a very mellow person, I wouldn't hurt a fly, it really took alot for me to pull Toby up, I just didn't have any choice, I was yelling at him to stop, I kneed him to get him off of me, I am only 5'1 and when he puts his paws up he is as tall as me. I would never put him in his crate as a punshiment, but it was raining and I had no where else to put him. I think he was really pissed off that I wasn't going to put up with his crap anymore. So I took your advice about the non-violent approach, and yesterday when he did the same thing I squirted bitter apple in his mouth. He went away peacefully and didn't try and jump and bite me for the rest of the day.!!!!! However, I tryed that today and as soon as he saw the bottle he started barking at it and trying to bite it.

I would like to end this by saying I know that because he was taken from his litter so early that he never got the dog social manners he would have gotten from his siblings and mother, and that it is part of the problem. So I don't even think he gets the scruff shaking thing because he probebly never got one. (I never did it either) I also know that I probebly should have just said no to taking him because of it, but I would have just adopted a puppy from the shelter and who knows where it came from. I found on the side of the road when he was about 4-5 weeks old. (I have never owned a purebreed dog before). He turned out to be the best dog I ever owned (he was my dog that I did helping hands with).

So in short Toby's personality is this. VERY VERY Smart, not hyper at all, stubborn, bossy, and lovable. NOT dog aggressive, not fearful of anything, and one heck of a retreiver (knows the names of individual toys will fetch at command the ball, chewy, tugtoy, or rope with them all laid out at once, and will pick the right one everytime.) He doesn't chew any furniture or dig. His only true problem is he wants to be the boss and when you don't let him he won't back down!!!!