I will be making my first trip to Europe this fall and am getting excited. I will be taking the train and staying in hostils. I just recently got out of the service and have some time on my hands so I am going just to tool around, I want to see all of the traning possible. Any suggestions?

Route; England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Charles Guyer:


Route; England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany.

Forget all of them they are tired. Go to Eastern Europe and look for working bloodlines.

Your trip will be cheaper, more interesting, the dogs are good when you find government/former military line breeders and... Natasha (my beautiful other half) says the women are finer.
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Tired, my a**! All depends on what you're looking for, and I don't have a clue if Charles is interested in sport or PPD, but for sport, you won't find better training or dogs anywhere on the planet.

If I were going...I would make sure I visited the Czech Republic as well as Slovakia. But then again, I like that type of dog.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
Tired, my a**! All depends on what you're looking for, and I don't have a clue if Charles is interested in sport or PPD, but for sport, you won't find better training or dogs anywhere on the planet.

I would argue the best dogs would make the best of both K9 and sport. If any dont think so then they are out of touch with what the goal is on both sides of the issue i think.

Much of Europe is market driven as it perhaps should be but any person looking for a dog should look at THE DOG or establish a working relationship with someone who is willing and able to find your working preferences that is if you know what you actually are looking for and want. The Western Europeans are fast to sell on the laurels of dogs gone and kennel name. This is especially true for the ones who have ethnocentric and glossy views of romanticism that the "best" can only come from German or Dutch accents. This is the biggest BS story and if you have close friends who live there they will tell you most laugh there A$$ off all the way to the bank. Many people go there or buy dog unseen on the "line" and not the knowledge of what they want. We Americans tend to buy higher then true market value based on the "potential” not the facts and then scratch our heads at why the dog turns out to be crap. No not all dogs breeders are tired but some emerging locations in Eastern Europe will be the future place to buy.

Czech Republic and Slovakia both are on the forefront of good dogs because they, like Poland for example, were able to make the transition of former USSR domination more quickly because of a more progressive government policy. So you have people in Russia, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania who one did and some who still do supply governments with quality working dogs. The reason they have strong working dogs with good working offspring in such places: Several years ago (even some today) any working dog considered garbage by the kennel masters (like it or not) would be killed and not breed because it cost to feed a nervy unsuitable working dog. As time progressed pets no are becoming more and more common for the emerging minority of people in those counties who can afford and opulent life-style. With this comes a need for greater security and a few breeders in these areas are being able to market their dogs for protection dogs as well as maintain some military dogs. While many governments still support there own breeding programs the “retired Officer” still has connections, knowledge and ability to negotiate. It will be up to you to find them but if you opt for Eastern Europe a good place to start is Russia. Communication can be slow there but a certified letter of inquiry (In Russian) will often produce some connection you can get started on.

Or you can tool around western Europe and go to known places and see the "Dog and Pony" show and still have a good time.

All that you say about Europeans laughing their butt off at the foolish americans buying their trash at exorbitant prices is absolutely true. Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the fact that there are tons of fabulous dogs there as well - they just aren't so quick to sell those good ones. But they're there, and you can go to many outstanding clubs and watch one after another that excel in the sport. And the training is of the highest calibre.

I don't agree at all that it's an automatic "given" that a dog that's suitable for the police or PP would necessarily also be ideal for the sport. Good nerves are needed in both, sure. But Schutzhund scoring criteria is quite specific (let's not argue about whether it's appropriate or not). If your dog doesn't have that genetic grip, just dock yourself 5-10 points before you walk on the field. But that wouldn't be a show stopper for a PP dog. If your dog doesn't have high prey, you're going to have a heck of a time making your OB look as flashy, fast and "joyful" as the dog who will do back flips for his reward. Even the tendancy for the calm, intense tracking style that is desired in sch is genetic to a large extent, and is not necessarily valued or bred for in kennels with other priorities. A dog can be a very good dog yet not be a very good candidate for someone wanting to compete at a high level in sport.

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
A dog can be a very good dog yet not be a very good candidate for someone wanting to compete at a high level in sport. The winners of K9 trials can and would win Schutzhund. There seems to e some myth that a police k9 does not get rewards or he is unhappy in trial. I say take a look at a good K9 national trial and you will see hardly a difference in working attitude of their top 5 to Schutzhunds top 5.

The dogs are workers with drive.

I don't think I would disagree with you there - a competition dog prepared for a DPO type trial has to demonstrate somewhat similar characteristics as a sch dog, thus the success of dogs like Brawnson and Itor. But I'm not talking about COMPETITION dogs; we were talking about whether dogs that are good candidates for working police dogs or PPD would automatically be good candidates for sport. The answer is no.

Our own Mr. VanCamp, ardent admirer of the Czech dogs, just said something similar the other day in a different thread:

"... And frankly I think that the BDR dogs are better overall for the sport. Years and years of genetic selection for one specific goal gets you dogs that are highly specialized and very good at what they are bred for.

The Czech dogs have been removed from this breeding and have gone in a slightly different direction. I like to think that the isolation has kept some traits that have been lost in a lot of the BDR bloodlines. Sharpness, hardness, balanced drives, social aggression, etc. Those things are good, and make them prime candidates for police service and protection work. They also have (generally) not developed the genetic grip to the extent that you see in the good BDR bloodines. . .and that is what hurts a lot of them in competition. "

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lee Baragona - Sch3FH2:
I don't think I would disagree with you there - a competition dog prepared for a DPO type trial has to demonstrate somewhat similar characteristics as a sch dog, thus the success of dogs like Brawnson and Itor. But I'm not talking about COMPETITION dogs; we were talking about whether dogs that are good candidates for working police dogs or PPD would automatically be good candidates for sport. The answer is no.

The answer is no only for those who don't have the knowledge; ability or willingness to developed the traits of a good working dog.

Find me any "good" police k9 candidate with the correct balance of drives and it will do better then ok in Schutzhund. The difference is the dog (if fully trained and working as a patrol dog) might scare the hell out of some of the helpers in the bark and hold ..he..heh..he but it does not mean they can’t be taught to be clean in the blind.

Stable, driven, hard biting dogs is what I am looking for in a police K9 and I think many others are looking for the in the same in the sport of Schutzhund.

So really a prey monster who is happy to bite full and in prey can compete in Schutzhund and title but not have the hardness to be a good patrol dog without further training and tweaking of its drives.

It does not mean those drives are there they are just not developed.

If I had, lets say, a hard biting but shallow (non full grip ) K9. I can teach him to not only bite full and hard but also prefer it. The obedience I want to see is the one command "right now" kind I can rely on. Otherwise I like to see heads up , tails wagging and working to achieve their reward for a good job. Lets not forget that almost all narcotics training is based on the dog working for his reward. Does anyone think the drive lessons taught for this does not transfer into drive for rewards on the field?

Getting High drive work out of a dog is easy enough to achieve with rewards once the dog is solid on the basics and is not temperament deficient in some area. For some it takes time but all dogs can be taught to like something and considerate rewarding. A good trainer reads the dog and finds it what ever it is food and/or a prey object are the most common no matter if it is a Police K9 or Sport dog. The best dogs ca do great at either job once trained how to do the job.

Are all k9s on the street good candidates for Schutzhund? The answer is no but I will add they, in my opinion, are not good examples of the kind of K9 I want to see on the street. Lord knows because o ignorance in the industry we have dogs working the street that should have never been given a collar. The reverse can be said in the sport arenas. Not all Schutzhund III would make it as a good patrol dog.

The argument is arbitrary because it goes back to standards of the trainers producing the dogs when you are not talking about the best example. Which I think is the basis of my argument and my focus. Back to the original subject you will find fine examples of good working dogs in Western Europe but you will pay for it. There is an argument for finding a workign dog kennel more easy but finding truly better dogs or puppies....if any want to think so? Ok think it.

Remember this trainers proverb and be well. "It came to America from Germany for a reason…that reason is hardly ever because it was the best dog in the kennel."