Having witnessed a couple of USA trails latley,then I watched a trail in Belgium,then one in Germany,my fears that schutzhund has become a joke in the USA was yet re-confirmed.(a believe I have held for a number of years)What are these judges passing apart from Fero prey drive monsters, that in the real world shouldn't be feed?We had better dogs 15 years ago.Why to they seem to encourage non-handler/owned trained dogs?Am I missing something?seems to me certain competitors could trail a "cat" & still make the usa team.To me the USA schutzhund people are no better than the show folk.

Please excuse spelling in above as I made a couple of errors.Way to early for me & I didn't check prior to posting.

Mark,

I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with you. Some of the points you brought up may be valid. Do you mind expanding a bit on each one of them? What is the difference you saw between the USA trials and those in Germany and other countries?

As far as judges not promoting handler owned/trained dogs: it is not their place to do that in a trial. A judge has to be objective to a particular dog's performance on a particular day. Promoting handler owned/trained dogs should be done elsewhere--I believe that's what HOT trials are for.

Hello Renee,I've witnessed apprrox 15 European trials over 5 visits.These are but a few differences I have seen. 1/The judges want more intensity in the search.Yet in USA how many dogs do we see search each & every blind with intensity?IMO the dogs just perform an obedience pattern lacking intensity,lacking in search (not looking in every blind).2/Bark & Hold, in the USA how many dogs bark with meaning or "Looks" the helper in the eye taking the fight to them?3/Tracking & obedience seem to go hand in hand,lack of focus & lack of real drive.4/Lack of sportsmanship. Seems to me all a dog has to do in the USA is pass a trail & they are awarded an "a" in protection.As far as Hot trails go surely this should be the normal trial not something special.I for one am sick to death of seeing the same names represent the USA with dogs they haven't trained & judging by the comments of several young people attending so are they.Promotion of the sport needs new blood to survive.Surely judges need to judge to a world wide standard to maintain credibilty.As far as breeders who pay big name handlers to trail their dogs(as show people do)is this really what the the good captain wanted?Cheque book Championships will only result in a smaller gene pool further reducing the working traits we value so much. Regards Mark

 Quote:

Originally posted by Dr Mark Williams:
I for one am sick to death of seeing the same names represent the USA with dogs they haven't trained & judging by the comments of several young people attending so are they.

Promotion of the sport needs new blood to survive.

Cheque book Championships will only result in a smaller gene pool further reducing the working traits we value so much. Regards Mark

Woo-hoo! Someone who "gets" it. I agree.

Yes, HELL yes!! Woohoo!!


Now, when will I be seeing the names Dr. Mark Williams and Dennis Hasley in the top five at the Nationals with HOT dogs from diverse breedings leading the way to better American Schutzhund? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Mark, there is Schutzhund then there is Schutzhund in the US, and it is lame to compare the two. The established dogsport society in Western Europe is incredible. There are over 100,000 members in just the SV alone, never mind all the other sports. There are 5,000 or less in United Schutzhund Clubs of America. There are clubs in Germany and Belgium that have been training for generations. . .the oldest clubs here are what? Maybe 25 years old? (thats a guess)

I met a 19 year old guy that went to the LGA with his dog he raised from a pup. That kid knows more about training for Schutzhund than I will ever know. He keeps learning, I keep learning. . .he just has a HUGE headstart. . .

. . .and very experienced GREAT helpers and about 100 working breeders and about 35 clubs and the best 50 or so SchH trainers in the world . . .all within a couple of hours drive.

Here is a good analogy. Schutzhund USA is to Schutzhund Europe as European BBQ is to American BBQ. There isn't much comparison, and there isn't the established tradition, the number of master BBQ cooks, or the structure for there to be a big BBQ influence coming out of Europe. Doesn't mean that the BBQ in Europe shouldn't be held to a high standard, how can it get better if the standards are not so good. . .BUT. . .


I think it would be more helpful to point out specific ways that everyone interested could make little changes to get the American Schutzhund community moving in the right direction.

To do that I really think one should be involved and leading by example. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you Robert. I guess my point is this: Jump of the preverbal tit of German trainers and train your own dogs. America has plenty of "in the know" trainers yet how many "know" start to finish and can do a good job at it?

I feel the better more rounded trainer is in fact a trainer and not a maintainer of someone else’s training. To me I could care less about people winning or losing with a dog as long as I know the standard is high and they or I did my best with from beginning to end. Sometimes a young dog need experienced trainers to reach it potential so I don’t reject those people or dogs. But it would be nice if we as Americans had more faith and understanding of our own ability to find and train dog on the same level and get off the preverbal tit of German trainers. Some here can and it seems right now America has plenty of "in the know" trainers yet how many "know" start to finish and can do a good job at it?

Is it wrong to buy a trained dog and then jump into the sport? I don’t think so but at the same time this group is somehow good enough to train the next generation of dogs and new to the sport owners? One of the reasons I have for so long been resistant to the idea of ever wanting to participate in the sport as much to do with what I saw and participated in as a novice trainer.

I found many loud aggressive __(fill in blank)__ who had just enough knowledge to be dangerous but not enough to train toward the example I wanted and had already produced. I have no doubt there are enlightened trainers on this board so yes lead by example would be nice. I understand now this example is the exception and many clubs really do care about the members and their overall success.
You shouldn't be angry with people wanting to become better and training toward this goal. Win or lose pass or fail they have my respect and they have gained.

Here is a link for you now.

http://www.helpself.com/control.htm

and thanks for the NA sonsorship Robert.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Funny, this topic comes up several times a year, and it is usually by people who do not compete in the sport.

Well, I have one thing to say about that... quit yappin' and get yo' aZZ on the grass...

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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To do that I really think one should be involved and leading by example.
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Words of wisdom out of VanCamp! Way to go! I do take issue, though, on account of BBQ. It’s highly debatable, and as someone who grew up in Europe, I can offer an unbiased opinion. We will come back to it later. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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VanCamp: I think it would be more helpful to point out specific ways that everyone interested could make little changes to get the American Schutzhund community moving in the right direction.
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We will do just that. It’s one thing to bitch (and there are good reasons to do so), another thing to do something constructive about it. There are too many issues to address in a single post, so I will start with #1.

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1/The judges want more intensity in the search.Yet in USA how many dogs do we see search each & every blind with intensity?
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You are right, Mark. I saw maybe one or two out of hundreds. Now why is that? Very simple. Blind search is one of the most difficult and time-consuming exercises to teach. Yet each blind is awarded only 1 point, regardless of the intensity of the search. It’s usually trained through force, and most dogs don’t usually “get the point” of it. In order to do it properly, some ingenuity needs to be applied, like use of multiple decoys. How many clubs do you know of that have the luxury of multiple decoys? Heck, I just lost the one and only!!! And all this for just 5 points? Why even bother? If the exercise was worth say, 20 points, with an emphasis on “real” search, I bet you would see a different picture.

Have to run—dogs come first!

This is intresting. I will say that the higher pointed dogs that I have worked from Belgium; the vast majority had a more intense hold and bark, meaning that the dog did not just sit at the sleeve and yap. As for the German dogs, the differences in the hold and bark varied from dog to dog. But as far a blind searches go, just about every one of them, would simply run around the blind, and not really search. In most parts of the world, the vast majority of trainers train the blind search with force. It really is not a search so to speak. I do not think that we have the exclusive on this in the States.

As far as promoting HOT, this is a slow process that is taking some foward movement. USA has always been big with people showing top dogs, that were titled elsewhere. I will say that in some of the DVG clubs there seems to be less of the already trained dogs, and more of the raise and train at the club level. But this is an organization that has what 1000 or so members. But even in the Bundensieger, alot of the dogs (not all) were trained, and some had titles before the people that showed them had them. Taking into account what some of Van Camp's comments were, it is pretty much a no-brainer why this is more of the norm in America.

While I have not seen 15 trials over in Europe, I have seen at least 15 German or Belgium judges, and I will say that some are stellar; others are not even worth the plane ticket over. I have met some judges in the States, that IMO were second to none.

One must not forget that we are only competing with a program that has been around for roughly 100 years in an area that one of our smaller States can fit into. Lets see what happens in another 40 years or so. Our schutzhund organizations are at the point that we have matured so information can be passed down. We have some excellent trainers here both pro,and hobby trainers. Maybe some of thier students that do well will pass what they know on, and the cycle will keep moving, thus growth. One good thing that I have seen USA do is the youth program. You need more kids in this sport. But this is a problem, not just here, but in Germany too.