There are two types of reflexes concerning classical conditioning.

Maybe I should leave a high horse alone hmm... nope.

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:
Unconditioned stimulus (US): this automatically triggers a reflexive response, or unconditional response.

Question: It seems some don't accept the dog can have a reflexive action (motivational correction) to painful stimulus or don't call this reflexive action a UR. Why not? Altho this has already been covered in the last thread, I'll ask you this - give us a SPECIFIC example of your so-called autocorrection or motivational correction so we're sure we're all on the same sheet of music. Cuz I know I'm picturing either a collar/leash correction or an ecollar stim. So tell us exactly what you apply to the dog and how.

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:
here is more about avoidance learning....

1. Unpleasant stimulus is a US that elicits a variety of UR's and like I said before a startle, retraction of limbs or body and fear are some examples of it. In fact, the range of conditioned responses is as wide as that of conditioned stimuli. How in heaven's name can you go on and on trying to convince us that you are teaching the sit thru CC, and then say here is more about AVOIDANCE learning, which is an operant conditioning paradigm????????

Originally posted by Dennis Hasley:
3. through classical conditioning, warning stimulus will come to elicit a fear response. Known as conditioned fear response.

The CR was classically obtained. If you had clarified that the conditioned response of FEAR (the emotion ONLY, not some overt behavior) was classically conditioned, we would have all agreed with you. Emotions are classically conditioned. We covered that already. But the rest of your procedure, the mechanics of teaching the sit, is still NOT classical conditioning. How do I know? Cuz I was stuck in the same hole you're stuck in when I read my first learning theory book. I thought that I could make avoidance conditioning paradigms fit into a CC structure. I was wrong then and you are wrong now.

With a unconditioned stimulus (US): this automatically triggers a reflexive response, or unconditional response. (UR) that leads to a CR in time.

Question: It seems some don't accept the dog can have a reflexive action to a(motivational correction) ie. painful stimulus or don't call this reflexive action a UR.

LEE: Altho this has already been covered in the last thread, I'll ask you this - give us a SPECIFIC example of your so-called autocorrection or motivational correction so we're sure we're all on the same sheet of music. Cuz I know I'm picturing either a collar/leash correction or an ecollar stim. So tell us exactly what you apply to the dog and how.


DENNIS: Unpleasant stimulus (a leash or E-stim correction) is a US that elicits a variety of UR's and like I said before a startle, retraction of limbs or body and fear are some examples of it.


LEE: How in heaven's name can you go on and on trying to convince us that you are teaching the sit thru CC, and then say here is more about AVOIDANCE learning, which is an operant conditioning paradigm????????

#### I think you missed the boat here.

Through classical conditioning, warning stimulus will come to elicit a fear response. Known as conditioned fear response. This CR is in the form of MOVEMENT AWAY FROM THE CORRECTION. IT IS NOT FEAR ALONE WHEN THE DOG MUST MOVE because the UR that established the CR was REFLEX.

The CR is classically obtained.

LEE: If you had clarified that the conditioned response of FEAR (the emotion ONLY, not some overt behavior) was classically conditioned, we would have all agreed with you. Emotions are classically conditioned.

DENNIS: So is a CR movement.

LEE: We covered that already. But the rest of your procedure, the mechanics of teaching the sit, is still NOT classical conditioning. How do I know? Cuz I was stuck in the same hole you're stuck in when I read my first learning theory book.

LEE: I thought that I could make avoidance conditioning paradigms fit into a CC structure. I was wrong then and you are wrong now.


DENNIS: No, you are not looking at how to combine both. Look close and if you accept the initial movement is a CR movement from the correction, you will also accept the CR is CC obtained and there is no way around it. That response is movement away. It is conditioned. A conditional response is acquired through experience and is not permanent.

The rest is Operant. Once established, Operant can have its day and does. As I have also said.

The thing that is not being accepted is the initial association training of a command/correction and the resulting movement CR as being 100% CC.


To explain the reason behind doing 3 autocorrections, CC must be explained I think.

The pattern of 3 times in a row to a command is a classical pairing and efficient learning for reliability of a response.

A few corrections in a row save many later and thus it is not only more efficient, ultimately less stress on the dog if you use corrections.


For those lost I want to make clear about 3 times and freebie. Is not forever and always in fact it is very very short correction period in the dogs life when done right. I want my dogs to move down and sit NOw reward or no reward..I still reward them

3 times establishes a few requirements of Classical conditioning and that is all. The rest is operant and the dog is rewarded for the good behavior. No other corrections come unless the dog does not move on command.

The ONE command only for movement, is the indicator of a strong CR.

Like I said before. "A conditional response is acquired through experience and is not permanent."

So when the dog shows failure to respond another 3 times and a freebie reestablishes it.

AGAIN the full training is obtained by a combination of a CR, (obtained classically) and later by channeling the movement and targeting a safe and reward zone though OC.

Lee forget it,

He is arguing that you can speed up a physologic resopnse through rehersal. Ain't going to happen. A CC response is as fast as it's going to get. It doesn't improve with practice, if anything it will slow down with practice. The only thing you can spped up is an emmited response, because the animal has control over it.

He believes what he believs, the fact that he is wrong won't change as much as he would like to argue black is white.

i hate to be the noob that had to ask this but it seems very in depth can any one break it down a bit more by giveing a couple examples?


pls, thank u

Originally posted by Richard Cannon:
Lee forget it,...He believes what he believs, the fact that he is wrong won't change as much as he would like to argue black is white. You're right, it's a waste of time. Someday he'll look back and wonder how he could have been so far off base.

Lee

 Quote:

Originally posted by Trey Denney:
i hate to be the noob that had to ask this but it seems very in depth can any one break it down a bit more by giveing a couple examples?


pls, thank u

Trey - you're not the only one. No way am I wading through all that sh!t tonight!!! Especially if everyone is saying it's off-base, anyway <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

It seems to me that Dennis is saying that through automatic corrections with one hand and guiding the dog to position with the other hand, 3 times in a row, he can create a reflex action( a knee jerk reaction)by the dog. In saying a reflex action you are saying the dog is responding mindlessly to the command, no stress, fear, or avoidance.A reflex to how things are and then reinforced with the reward. So the question is can you create a reflex(mindless knee jerk)response to a command from a dog. For a dog to do this it would have to go from A to C in its mind by way of opening a door and bypassing B. It seems that the argument is that is impossible because the dog must pass through B (stress ,fear,or advoidance) to get there.So we are talking about what some people call rapid fire training. "Rapid fire training" being command, correction and guidance, praise/reward repeated 3 times in a row and then the 4th time command only and then reinforced with the reward.I think it is a very good observation and something to think about.I enjoy seeing somone thinking independantly and challenging things that are suppose to be the norm. Psycology is not an exact science but theories. At one time the normal treatment for some one clinicaly deppressed( considered insane) was to put them in a giant lottery type basket and turn the handle and roll them around and try to stimulate them back to reality. Nothing is black and white when dealing with the mind. With that being said, Dennis may never prove to you that he is right, but when dealing in theories, I dont believe you can prove he is wrong.You can only quote a popular theory.

There is already a theory Dennis is describing and it is OC, not CC.

There is already a theory Dennis is describing and it is OC, not CC.