whether or not to breed
#6439 - 03/02/2005 09:35 AM |
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I have a 15 week female GSD, offspring of German imports, great dog. I have an acquaintance who owns a German import male, also a great dog. The owner of the male wants me to allow them to breed, later on of course. The female is my girl, and I don't want to do anything that will jeopardize her health. I have obviously never bred dogs before, and I would not jump into it haphazardly. My question is what are the health ramifications of allowing a breeding to take place regarding my girl? Secondly, if you think it is a good idea, when approximately should I allow it to take place?
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Re: whether or not to breed
[Re: Mark Sloan ]
#6440 - 03/02/2005 10:18 AM |
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Re: whether or not to breed
[Re: Mark Sloan ]
#6441 - 03/02/2005 10:46 AM |
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When I say, "great dog" I mean intelligent with a good temperament. Every trainer or shepherd owner who has seen or dealt with mine has had nothing but praise for her. I know the father and mother of mine. The father is Schutzund trained, and the mother is a former K-9 dog. The male, which is the possible sire to mate with my dog, is a young adult and trained in Schutzund and also very intelligent and well mannered. As I said, I am not a breeder. I am not knowledgable as to what makes a good breeding bitch and do not claim to be. I know I am a novice and need advice from someone who does know. Thanks.
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Re: whether or not to breed
[Re: Mark Sloan ]
#6442 - 03/02/2005 11:10 AM |
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At 15 weeks you have almost two years before you'd even have to think about breeeding your female.
You won't know how her hips will end up on OFA x-ray until you have them done at age two years, and a passing OFA should be the minimum testing for consideration for breeding.
Is the German import male that your "acquaintance" has titled? How did his hip x-ray come out?
You mention that he's "schutzhund trained", but has he gotten the titles yet?
Have you given thought to trying to title your female?
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Re: whether or not to breed
[Re: Mark Sloan ]
#6443 - 03/02/2005 09:22 PM |
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In 70% of litters the female and/or pup(s) die.
With the cost of hip certifications, blood tests, elbow certification, temperament tests, brucellosis testing, puppy food, advertising, vaccines, exams, time off work, and when things inevitably go wrong (c-sections are very expensive at the local emergency hospital), it would be cheaper to buy a puppy and give it to your friend. A whole lot easier too. And even if you go through all that you might find out that the dogs are not right for each other. You have to carefully compensate for flaws, and make sure that each both have the same qualities that you consider most important. The average female washes out of a breeding program somewhere along the way, and then you are out all the extra money.
"Dog breeding must always be done by a dog lover, it can not be a profession." -Max v Stephanitz |
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Re: whether or not to breed
[Re: Mark Sloan ]
#6444 - 03/03/2005 12:05 AM |
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You need to know how the pedigrees match up, how the dogs match up phenotypically and be sure you aren't doubling up on faults.
Breeding 'two nice dogs' together rarely does any breed any good.
Are you willing to risk losing your bitch? Do you have $1800 to pay for an emergency c-section? Do you have a vet with repro experience who is competant in such procedures (most pet vets are fairly clueless re: repro beyond "spay/neuter it.")
Who is going to stay home with the bitch and her puppies for the first few weeks? Who will take all these puppies when they're old enough? What if you have puppies that you can't place?
There's a lot to think about before just throwing two dogs together because they're nice. Not breeding her will not make her less of a dog and breeding her is not going to "make her complete."
It's a lot of hard work and stress, and can involve a lot of heartache. You have to decide how much you're willing to sacrifice and then spend the next 2 years studying everything you can get your hands on re: pedigrees, health issues, health testing, the bloodlines you're considering combining, canine structure, canine temperament/drives, canine repro......there's a LOT to be learned before making your first attempt at bringing living animals into the world.
Gretchen Caldwell |
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Re: whether or not to breed
[Re: Mark Sloan ]
#6445 - 03/03/2005 12:00 PM |
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Mark-I don't agree with alot of the prior posts as to the danger to your female and c sections etc etc. Those are in my experience very low risks. However as low as the risks are they are not worth taking and adding anymore dogs to this world unless you can look at this two years from now and say "I owe it to the German Shepherd breed and its loyal followers to responsibley pass on my females genetics because she is truly exceptional and has that much to offer the breed"
Then if all that is true you have to do the following. Do you want to be a breeder?? The responsability and work that goes with it. Is your female such high quality that many of her puppies will be sold by reservation prior to their birth? Then you have to prove her excellence in something in my opinion. Do you want to train her in Schutzhund or other dog sports? Or do service work, Police, SAR etc etc. Then of course she has to be not only a great individual but have the pedigree to hopefully pass on those traits. Disease free? Good hips and elbow?
Then after all of those conditions are met and its something you really want to do. Do your research and study pedigrees and prior breedings. Find the male that best suits her as a mate and gives her the chance to best produce puppies you desire. Don't just go to friends dog etc. Search the WORLD for the right match. Pay for all the vet checks, shipping, etc etc. If you are going to do it DO IT RIGHT.
The good news is at her age you have another two years almost before you can even get her hips certified. Also nothing says you need to breed her at age two. Enjoy your dog. See if she is just your best friend and companion or did she end up becoming your passion/obsession etc etc. Then decide. Maybe after all of that and if the fire is burning in you that many of us have you may likely find out your first GSD is not of World Class material and you upgrade and try again.
Best Wishes-Derek
"If it comes down to me or him........its going to be me every single time" |
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Re: whether or not to breed
[Re: Mark Sloan ]
#6446 - 03/03/2005 06:10 PM |
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70% die? Where can I find this study? If this was true shelters wouldn't be full. I would really like to see that study please.
I am smarter than my dog, your just not. |
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Re: whether or not to breed
[Re: Mark Sloan ]
#6447 - 03/03/2005 08:38 PM |
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I don't think Lauren was saying that 70% of the puppies die in each litter. I think she was saying that in 70% of all litters, one or more of the puppies dies or possibbly even the bitch. That sounds like a reasonable estimate to me.
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Re: whether or not to breed
[Re: Mark Sloan ]
#6448 - 03/03/2005 08:40 PM |
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Mark,
there is alot of things that go into breeding, and I'm sure if you use the search engine here you will find alot. I don't know if Ed has a video or not about this, but it'd be worth a shot looking and if so getting. I am not saying you should go ahead and breed, however, I also, do not agree at all with certain posts about the numbers given. I know alot of dog people who have bred, and I to have bred alot of litters (nothing remotely like ED, but enough to get some insight) and seen the results of my work. I bred in a different sport though but I never heard of anyone having brood bitches with that kind of bad luck. Everytime I lost a litter, it was because the mother ate the pups, that happens alot in bulldogs. Once I paid $1500 for a stud fee, drove 10hrs, and had an ultrasound and started taking deposits on pups, and luck struck, I had turned my garage into a whelping area, with a/c and all, and the mother accidentally pulled the swimming pool with her pups in it out into the direct noon time sun,(she found a cable to play with and it got wrapped around the pool) this was in Tennesse during July, the pups had a heat stroke and all died. Had to return money, lost 1500 and this stud that was extremely valuable died of old age before her next heat(12yrs old) and his frozen sperm was $4000.00 That is the only problems I ever had and at one point I had 26 dogs, 11 were bitches. So I'd take earlier statistics with a grain of salt.
COL Nathan R. Jessup for President |
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