I am teaching my GSD to stay in a down, and so far he is up to 10 seconds with me walking back from him and then approaching him at the count of ten...I am wondering how to increase the time, should it be a second or so at a time till he gets it then increase or more? Seems like it would be a year before I made it to 30 seconds if i did it that way. He is loving the training and I just ordered the basic training video from Leerburg...also should I be using treats and for how long? I do use treats now. He is defintely not food driven or ball driven. Dont' have any spare cats around to praise him with.

Julia

First, on the lack of food interest - experiment with different things. Even finicky dogs usually will like something (liver, ham, cheese). Food is invaluable in teaching the introduction to most behaviors. Dogs don't work for free any more than we do, so try to find something he values.

Don't be predictable in the duration of the down. If you repeat a 10-second down several times, he'll rapidly learn that it only lasts 10 seconds and he'll want to break after that. I walk around, returning many, many times to the dog, passing by and feeding while he stays in the down position. Constantly vary the time between treats; extend the AVERAGE duration, but mix in plenty of very short durations. I personally also praise calmly and quietly while I'm walking around, to let him know that he's doing what I want, so a reward is imminent. It helps to extend their duration much faster (at least it seems that way to me).

I am personally against training with treats. The dog needs to obey you because you are the Alpha, not because he will get a piece of cheese. If you train a dog with treats he will never truly respect you. If your dog breaks the down stay give him a sharp smack under the chin, and return him to the original spot and tell him to stay again. Once he has stayed for a bit without moving call him and praise him. You can gradually increase down times, and eventually dissapear from sight for any amount of time. It's important to remember to always smack under the chin so that the dog does not become hand shy from petting, and it knows that it is being punished. If you punish the dog exactly the same way every time, the dog will not confuse affection with punishment. It is also VERY important to always punish fairly, and show the dog a lot of love, respect and kindness.

I agree with Lee. I am using this procedure on my 3mos old GSD for Sit and Down and it is working well. Use treats it's more fun for both of you.

Originally posted by Matthew Fleury:
The dog needs to obey you because you are the Alpha, not because he will get a piece of cheese. There's nothing wrong with expecting your dog to obey you, AFTER he's learned what's expected. This dog is in the very initial stages of learning to stay in a down - punishment is not warranted. So while he's initially learning, we can build a pleasant association thru rewards for correct behavior, or we can build fear thru punishment. Take your pick.

Originally posted by Matthew Fleury:
If you train a dog with treats he will never truly respect you. I'm gonna assume you mean if you ONLY train with treats and abhor aversives. But no one is advocating that extreme point of view. This is to TEACH the dog - the use of treats or balls or whatever that particular dog likes is ideal. LATER, if the dog has his own agenda and ignores a command that he has previously demonstrated a high level of proficiency on, corrections are appropriate. Not in this dog's case.

Originally posted by Matthew Fleury:
If your dog breaks the down stay give him a sharp smack under the chin, and return him to the original spot and tell him to stay again. Once he has stayed for a bit without moving call him and praise him. This guidance is ill-advised, tho I'm sure your dogs have managed to figure out what's expected. First, if you are going to use punishment, have the dog on a line and make a correction which causes the dog to become correct. In other words, instead of walking to him and smacking him in the head, which does nothing to cause him to lay back down and does LOTS to teach him to be afraid of your approach, give a line correction which pops the dog back down into the platz, before he ever has a chance to walk away from the place where you left him. If you have gotten far enough away that you can't give a timely correction, then you've missed the window and to walk back to him and hit him is totally bogus.

Also if the behavior you want is to stay put in the down, then reward IN THE DOWN. Don't call the dog to you and then reward, cuz in the dog's little pea brain, the down is nothing but a scary place where nothing good happens, and the reward is only going to come when he gets up and runs to you, so there is strong incentive to break the down and come to you. Not what you want him to think. Go to him and reward while he is still in the down.

Good advice Lee, I have found that I was making the mistake of doing the same duration of time for the stay and he would just get up after 10 seconds or so. I do believe it is not fair to punish a dog for doing something wrong before he is fully trained on whatever it is. He is just beginning to learn basic obediance and I dont' think punishing him for not sitting right away or staying will do much good till he is much farther along. He is a very bright dog and I think alternating treats with praise will work well. Thank you.

In response to Mattherw's comments about never using treats.....be the Alpha.....

I am the Alpha.....and I give treats. When starting the dog on a certain obedience task I will reward the dog with tons of praise and a treat. As the dog becomes more consistent at the task I begin to use less treats and continue with the praise. Eventually I am at only praise for the reward. Keep in mind that if the dog does not do what it is told I will add a correction. As the treats become less and less, the Alpha in me becomes more and more, and the corrections go from simply putting the dog where I want it then praising it for being there, to scold and a leash correction, etc.

As one area goes down the other goes up. The dog learns to enjoy the exercise and as it gets better at it, more pressure is exerted through Alpha type corrections. Eventually the Alpha is what the dog is listening to....not the treats.

Would you expect a pre-schooler to be scolded and popped on the head by the teacher.....or would you expect the teacher to be patient and encourage the child helping them along the way.......as the child becomes older and more is expected, more discipline is needed when the child acts inappropriate.....your typical teenager, etc.........

Think of it as a process involving a child.....your puppy is your child....and even the older dogs starting obedience are children in that aspect....they learn through positive experiences........

I like Lee's post, too.

As for the teenager analogy, I'm not so sure. Once a person (or dog) "knows how to behave", I doubt that this good behavior will last forever if it never again results in good, solid, reinforcement. All living things need occasional contact with such reinforcement...preferably unconditioned reinforcement (treats) or some REALLY powerful conditioned reinforcement. Even a full grown adult human won't continue performing unreinforced responses no matter how reliable they were when they learned that response.

I wouldn't depend on being "the alpha" as the mainstay of a well behaved dog either!

I suppose I should clarify a little more.....I was not implying, though it read that way, that simply being Alpha will suffice. Kelton you are correct that the positive association still needs to be there......I am saying that at a certain point my command should be enough to get the dog to do what is asked, and simply because that is what was asked of the dog and nothing more. Correct behavior earns tons of praise and rewards, but at a certain point the treats begin to phase out of the obedience process and are replaced by my praise alone as the reward. Granted, I still give the dogs the occasional treat for proper behavior.

As for the teenager analogy, it should be read more like the teenager should do what is asked of them because they have been taught it is the correct thing to do, with love and appreciation and a sense of accomplishment as the reward, whereas the pre-schooler may need a little more, such as a treat for a job well done.

I believe the idea behind the treat, whether it be human or dog, is that the subject associates the treat with what is asked of them and it becomes a "happily" done exercise, whether it be cleaning the room or staying in the down position. As time goes on it becomes automatic and the treat becomes expected....so gradually the treats are removed so the exercise becomes associated with the command rather than the treat......over time as the job continues to be well done occassional treats are good......

It is key that once the treats are removed that I continue to show I am the Alpha......dogs will sense weakness just like teenagers......but being an Alpha can create problems unless there is love and affection balanced in like you say......does that make a little better sense?

It sounds as though the dog knows how to down but doesnt understand that it is suppose to stay in that position.With that being said the problem at this point is not the "stay" but actually just the dog staying in the down position for a length of time.First things first would be making it clear to your dog that it can not get out of that position until released. First practice on keeping your dog down while you are standing beside it. From this the dog has a chance to learn what is expected and that a release is what it is wating for.The moment a dog starts to break the down , mark the moment with a "no" then give the command and correct the dog back down.You can give treats here and after the release.The second step would be putting the dog in a down and walking out to the end of your leash and turning and facing the dog.This way the dog gets use to you leaving it and you are still close enough to have good timing with keeping the dog from getting out of the position.The main thing is making it clear to the dog that it cant get out of the postion until released. Doing what Fleury recomended doesnt make clear to the dog what exactly it is that you want.There are more steps to do but this is the foundation you need to build.