Hello everyone! first time posting, just got access to chat. My question is has anyone heard or know of this kennel vombrandonhaus.com. I recently got a dog from them, seams like a great pup. he is 11 weeks old now/had him since 7wks. wondering if mabey i got more than i barganed for. I know, i know, i should have done the reaserch before i got him but i just could not wait any longer & jumped at geting him. i went purely by there web site for info & talkin/meeting the owners. very nice people by the way & i do recoment them after having this pup for a few weeks, i got what i asked for, most dominant of the litter. but i find it curious i cant find any other info on them.
FYI: i am unable to pet this pup (unless he is chewing on one hand & i pet with the other), he allowed me to pet him only twice! otherwise the only affection is from him biting the hell out of my hands. i know this is good as i plan to give shuthund a go. i have not corrected him much regarding this. i actually planed to let him grow out of it but he bits very hard (Playfully) & when he sees he is hurting me he bites even harder!!! when i put my finger down his throat or scruff him or close his snout & say no or give him a snout slap he just spins in a circle & come right back at me , even harder!!! my hands & arms will probably be scared! I find myself now correcting him for biting, out of reflex now, its very painfull i have bites on top of bites on top of bits. if you have any advice it would be appreciated. or i will just go with the flow. mostly im interested if anyone has any info or knowes of this kennel, itis in petersburg virginia. oh one thing i do is put on my "hatch" gloves (they are very thin gloves) to play with him. this helps quite a bit but his bites still hurt even with gloves.
thank you,
Nick

Nick. you are teaching this dog to bite your hands. how can you put on gloves, rough house and have the pup bite your hands and then correct him for bitting your hands later?!! it doesn't make sense! buy a small tug, or bite rag and work that! sorry but i don't have any info for you on the kennel. hopefully this dosen't come accros to brash! oh and the video Bite Training for Puppies will help too! happy new year!

Brian, I like brash & to the point, thanks. I don’t think I have a choice anymore, I need to make him stop the biting! The gloves I think can have value even though he bites my hands with no gloves, I know he goes all out when the gloves are on. he sees me putting on the gloves & starts barking (the only time he barks at me) because he knows we are going to play rough & that he can go off when the gloves are on. I believe I can stop the biting (once I commit to doing it)& only have him bite when the gloves are on. this way I can let my hands heal & allow him to have some fun, since this is his most favorite thing to do!
Sorry for all the spelling errors.

A bite tug would be far better - your giving the pup wrong vibes.

Buy and watch the video as earlier stated, before you go any farther.

I have a 4 mo old malinois, when first obtained the dog (8 weeks old) I done the same as - a little rough housing, but I also used a samll tug and a rolled towel at times. Pup got to where she was doing full mouth bites on my forearm, which I thought was OK.

About a month ago - we were playing and she was in warp 10 --- she came around behind me, jumped up on the couch - jumped 4 ft from the couch to my backside and latched herself onto the back of my upper arm ---- as I finally got her off, calmed down and kenneled her ---- I had a severe bire on the back of my arm - not deep punctures - but nevertheless - some very brusing puppy marks.

Since then we only play with the tugs or towel now when we bite ----- she is much more calmer - just playing normal - with me and others.

Learned quickly - the video has a lot of good info.

Good Luck

This hand biting is certainly natural, but there is the possibility of trouble that should be dealt with while the dog is more easily managed.

I would try something that looks like this:
1) go to dog, let him out of crate, offer play with a tug (or other biting/pulling toy).
2) dogs teeth make contact with your hands
3) dog is told "no!" and immediately finds himself back in crate with no toy
5) a few minutes later, repeat from step one (repeat, repeat, repeat....)
6) if dog doesn't go immediately for your hands on one of the later sessions, then put your hands in more vulnerable positions...when dog bites...repeat the process

That's the idea anyway...there are probably a wide number of variations on the same theme. Yanking or hurting your dog might be problematic, so this method doesn't have that issue.

So long as the dog is playing without biting your hands, make sure that the play is the best sort of play you can offer...lots of treats too...as long as the play is going well. The very instant the teeth hit your hands...do NOT let this slide....verbally mark it (no!)...and get that dog back in the crate. By offering the most excellent play possible, this dog will truly notice that he is being punished when placed back in the crate. If he doesn't bite, then this great play will further reinforce good play habits. You can do these sessions fairly often every day. When you need to do something with the dog (and can't put him back in the crate, well just make darn sure this dog can't get to your hands...so it can't get away with it....you want EVERY episode of 'teeth on hands' to result in a complete and sudden shut down of fun.
If you are worried about the possibility of inhibiting this dog's willingness to bite....I don't think you'll have that sort of problem with the sort of gator that you describe. Just make sure he has the types of toys and play forms that the DOG wants to do as a replacement for hand biting.

behaviorally, this procedure would be called:
-time out from reinforcement for hand bites
along with
-differential reinforcement for other behavior

Nick, I doubt you'll find any info on that kennel, cuz judging from their website, they don't do anything with their dogs, including title them. It appears they just buy conformation-line youngsters and start breeding them.

Every time you get your pup out, you must have a toy with you. Every time. It's 100% certain that when he gets out, he's gonna be wound up and want to play, and to a puppy, that means BITE. So you give him something appropriate to bite and you play with him. Pups like to chase things that are moving, so keep the toy active. If you have a squeeky toy or something static like that, the thing moving the most is going to be your hand/arm, so naturally that's where the dog targets. I like to tie a 4-5' line to the toy and tie it to a pole (broom handle, riding whip, fishing pole, etc). Now I can stand up, and i can move that toy very very fast and twitch it in a way that is irresistable to the puppy. It keeps their focus on the toy, while also developing prey drive and targeting skills, and saving your skin. I have many different types of toys for the pup to play with - stuffed animals, latex squeeky toys, towels or rags, jute roll, etc. If the pup does latch onto me, I just tell him no and instantly redirect his attention into a toy and tell him how great he is when he dives on the toy instead.

If you are going to punish (and I personally think there ARE things that can/should be punished even this young), make sure that you make an impression. If you correct the puppy only enough to aggrevate him, frustrate him, or make him mad (pain often brings anger), then you are teaching the puppy to resist thru the pain/correction. If I make a correction, it's strong and decisive; the puppy's reaction is clearly one of fear and submission. And in the next instant, I show him what I DO want him to do (i.e., play with a toy instead of bite my face off) and praise the hell out of him and we're back to being buddies instantly.

Lee described perfectly what you should do. I would like to add to not use the crate as punishment. The pup is young and you want him to look at his crate as a good place to be and his safe haven. If you make it a form of punishment he will look at it as a bad place and you will have problems.
Good luck and follow Lee's advice to the letter.

Pat

Regarding the use of punishment and crates becoming associated with "bad" stuff.
Lee, I do think that there are things that are 'punishable'...in fact, "time out" is a punishment. I know what you mean, I think, that you believe that direct physical punishment is sometimes called for. I have a habit of not recommending such measures without giving lots more information. I don't know this person, but if he is a novice, there is a strong tendency to overuse punishment in all sorts of ways and for all sorts of reasons if the person finds great success early on....and this goes for the treatment of pets and children, too. I think we have all witnessed otherwise sweet people getting physically brutal in suprisingly frequent ways with their charges. If physical punishment goes well early on, then it tends to be the weapon of choice...and you get a trigger happy trainer (because the trainer has been negatively reinforced for using physical punishment). Anyway, this sort of advice is somewhat habitual with me.

With regard to the crate getting associated with punishment. Doubtful, but the point is that the dog needs to be removed from fun. Tie him off somewhere or anything of that sort. Not using the crate is a fine precaution though.

So if you want to use effective punishment...
1) it has to be at a high enough intensity that is definately gets the dogs attention
2) it's best if you don't start with smaller forms of physical punishment and work your way up to greater and greater intensities....so start with an intensity level that the dog will notice right from the start
3) it must happen *every time* the dog breaks the rule (every time!)
4) it must happen the *instant* the dog misbehaves...that means instantly, not 3 seconds later. If you miss your chance, then smack yourself, not the dog...and remember to be quicker next time.
5) it should be paired with some sort of vocal marker ("no!")....this comes in handy later on.
6) and, as always, insure that you are giving the dog viable alternatives to 'hand biting' (appropriate biting toys as Lee describes)
7) if your dog (or child) tends to cower or act fearful upon your approach when no punishment is intended, then you can be sure that your punishing approach is going very wrong...be careful about this. Remember that great majority of your interactions with your dog need to be great fun for the dog