*Sigh*
Sometimes I read crap from the AKC or breed organizations and I just shake my head. I can't really believe that these idiots actually believe what they're spewing onto the pages of this month's ( Feb 2004 issue ) "The German Shepherd Dog Review".
This is a quote from Ginny Atlman, the GSDCA president.

"When I visited Germany and sat in on the WUSV meeting for the first time, I became aware of the passion that the officers of the SV and WUSV have for the Breed. I expected that they would have felt a duty to the welfare and preservation of the German Shepherd Dog but somehow, I thought that it was the GSDCA members that had the fierce passion for our German Shepherd Dogs. We are not the only ones. I realized from this broader experience that there are hundreds of thousands of people of all nationalities and many countries that hold this Breed as dear as we do." :rolleyes:

News flash for ya there, Ginny. The breed *originated* in Germany, before your little group of greedy, unethical, idiots morphed it into a siezure prone, dysplastic bundle of nerves that couldn't pass a SchH trial if it's life depended on it.

The GSDCA could not have done more harm to the GSD breed if they tried - they should be ashamed of what they've done. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

And the WDA makes a pact with the devil by allowing themselves to be affiliated with the GSDCA.

what has happened to many breeds of dogs is very like what cartoon artists get when they create a caricature; a gross overexageration of a certain characteristic. think of the newspaper cartoon drawings of nixon, carter, clinton, reagan, etc. the danger in dog breeding comes as a result of too much emphasis placed on certain characteristics. unless the dog is taken as a whole, there can be no balance......in structure or in abilities.

in view of what is currently going on in the organization of the sv, things that happened between them and usca (and gsdca-wda) and things that have happened between usca and dvg, it appears that we have, for a long time, been at odds about what the gsd shall be. will did a pretty good job of describing what has happened to the american bred show dog, but if we are really honest with ourselves, are we so sure that an injustice hasn't been done also to the working dogs? we have created some dogs that are so "hard" (or hard-headed) that the only way to get thru to them is by shocking the $h1+ out of them. we have created some bonkers prey monsters that are in drive almost all the time....even when the situation doesn't call for it. they are either 100mph or dead asleep...nothing in between. are these dogs what we really want to live with 24/7? or are they something that we've created for the sole purpose of competition? are their drives even balanced enough that they could do real work if they had to? is this sort of dog any kind of real companion or is their purpose in life to inflate our egos? i am seeing some changes just in the dogs i have owned myself over the past twenty-odd years. some changes for the good and some i am not sure i like at all. i am becoming less and less impressed with high prey drive. it needs to be there, but i am inclined to think that both prey and defensive drives need to be tempered more with intelligence. the gsd has long been known for its intelligence, but what will happen if too much emphasis is placed on drives? maybe i am just thinking out loud, but i am concerned about the future of the working lines. if not careful, we could create a caricature of our own. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Patricia,
We've had a discussion about balance many times. I think that the increase of higher drive, harder type working dogs ending up in sport handler's hands is due to a couple of factors.

The fall of the iron curtain not only freed the people of eastern europe, but the dogs that lived their also. As many of the dogs had been bred in isolation for 30+ years, their genetics will be a bit different .

Some jobs require an extreme dog -law enforcement immediately comes to mind. But a extreme type dog has the highest possiblity of scoring top points in competition - they're often not much fun to live with tho.

Human atheletes could be considered extreme versions of humans - but they're the ones that get the big bucks and accolades. Same for the GSD.

Patricia wrote:"are we so sure that an injustice hasn't been done also to the working dogs? we have created some dogs that are so "hard" (or hard-headed) that the only way to get thru to them is by shocking the $h1+ out of them. we have created some bonkers prey monsters that are in drive almost all the time....even when the situation doesn't call for it. they are either 100mph or dead asleep...nothing in between."

I read these comments everywhere on the internet, yet I am having a hard time locating all of these crazy, hyperactive working dogs that everyone is talking about. I see many dogs from different bloodlines and I have to say, I don't see many of the types of dogs you are describing.
I have a theory that most people simply have no idea how to raise and handle a working GSD. Then you have the "trainers" that have no idea where to stop as far as raising drive, especially in protection training. They ask for way too much from very young dogs. The most common mistake is trying to bring out aggression in young dogs. Young dogs do not develop social aggression until they are at least 18 months and most develop it later than that. In order to work with this social aggression, you have to wait until its THERE. If it isn't there, yet you continue to try to bring aggression, you are making serious problems for later on in the training. Add to that, that most people work their young dogs too much/too often in prey drive and you have another set of problems entirely.
My female Fly has a tremendous amount of prey drive. At first, I wondered if she could calm down and be a good house dog. Well, she is in here and she a perfect angel. No electric needed in training either. I have a few others that I know in the wrong hands, might appear to be one of the examples you listed above. I have seen people make very nice dogs look like nervous wrecks with their "training style." I suggest, when you see one of these nutty dogs, that you look to their handler to see what they are like. Nine times out of ten you will find the answer for the dog's behavior in their owner.

I own and have owned some very high drive dogs. Never have I needed an electric collar to control them. However, I train my own dogs and I am careful to teach them to load to the right level. Many trainers seem to take the approach of raising drive, or loading the dog, beyond where they should be. Then they use the e-collar to control what they have created.
So, IMO, most of the time, it is the people and not so much the dogs.

I would like to add something I've read about Dogs bread for looks.
This is a quote from veterinary behaviorist Katherine Houpt, of Cornell
Dogs that carry their heads and tails erect catch the attention of judges, and thus tend to win shows. Those are also the marks of a dominant, hence aggressive, dog. Some show-dog breeders don't actually live with their dogs (the dogs stay in kennels), and so are willing to put up with bad traits in a single-minded pursuit of the perfect coat or the half-pricked ear.

Anne
Your right on in all but one area!
I believe it is also in the training. You must not only teach a dog to turn on, but also to come out of drive just as fast.
But the collar also is not a bad thing, as you seam to think. As with everything else it is only a tool it is the trainer/handler that uses or misuses it.
Ron

Hi Ron,
No where in my last post did I say the collar was a bad thing. I was responding to the original comment about dogs that can only be 'controlled' with an e-collar. I am sure there are people that use the collar and do so quite effectively. However, that is not the topic here. The topic was about how dogs from working lines are "uncontrollable" or basically so nuts that the only way to get thru to them is, as Patricia stated, "by shocking the $h1+ out of them".
I said I have high drive working dogs and have never needed to use an e-collar to 'control' them. My comments were not directed at people that do use the collar properly. I was simply stating that I don't see these crazy dogs everywhere, as seems to be what more than a few people are claiming.
The ones I have seen that fit this profile, are usually the victims of sh*t training including improper use of the e-collar.

i need to be a little more clear sometimes.....
*first of all, i was not talking about all working line dogs. i was talking about the exagerated examples. the out-of-control dogs.
*next, i love to churn things over and examine what i think about things and like to invite others to do the same. "what if this is going on?" "how do we really feel about such & such?" "what do i want the end result to be?" "how do i achieve it?" stuff like that.
*and for anne, i always appreciate your comments because even though i don't know you personally, i can tell from the way you post that you take time in training your dogs, don't take short cuts or use excessive force on them. infact, i appreciate comments from anyone who is an experienced trainer, successful with ethical methods and give advice tactfully.
*what i don't appreciate, is someone who has bought or imported a schh3 dog and then tries to come off like they are the ultimate authority. (there's nothing wrong with buying a titled dog and doing so could mean a fair share of problem solving or bringing yourself up to speed, etc.)
*and finally, i have to agree with the possibility of handler and training issues being the cause of some crazy dog behaviors. however, i don't think that is always the case. i do think that some dogs are just bred crazy and falling into the wrong hands just accentuates the problem.

Will wrote: "And the WDA makes a pact with the devil by allowing themselves to be affiliated with the GSDCA."


Preach on brother!


Nice posts Ann.