In a thread under the Building Drive, Focus, and Grip section, another poster condemned people for making money off of Bernhard's seminars. I'm not very internet savvy so if someone else can link it that would be great.

For me personally as a handler and dog owner, I could care less if a club/person makes money off of a seminar. If the person who is doing the training feels they are being paid fairly and I'm willing to pay the price for the seminar, who cares if the person/club that arranged it is letting their members attend for free or is making some money off of it. If I think the seminar is too expensive or not worth the quality of training I just won't go.

That is my personal opinion. However, I'm trying to get a Schutzhund club going up here in BFE Alaska and I'm wondering if this is normal. Is it considered unethical to make some money off of a seminar? Is a club considered greedy if they let their members attend for free and charge visitors extra to make up for the loss? If my club does hold a seminar I don't want us to get the wrong type of reputation.

I personally think that clubs should make money off of everything the do. Just like the girl scouts with their cookie drives, etc.
The "club" needs to be financially solvent for the good of it's members. The club will have unexpected expenses from time to time and with success will come overhead. there's nothing wrong IMO with a club having a nice nest egg in the treasury for a rainy day or if Flinks happens to be in the area or a great French Ring Decoy or anybody that may benefit the club but needs to meet their own expenses, etc.
As far as members not paying for a seminar, well they probably are paying dues already and membership should make them entitled to some priviliges on occation.

OK, I'll pipe up here.
I and Ed have hosted seminars over the years. You think there's money to be made??? Do a few and see how little money comes as a result of a seminar.
Tons of work goes into them and if things go well you make a little money to help the club offset expenses in some other area.
My club never makes money off trials, sometimes we come close to breaking even but never makes money. We have to buy equipment, pay field expenses, pay dues, buy insurance, etc.
Sometimes the benefit is an extra club only day with a seminar instructor.
If a club makes money off an event people want to attend how could you condemn that activity??
If you want to get my lather up about money and sports lets hit the unscupulous importers, trainers that aren't qualified charging ridiculous sums of money to "schutzhund" train a dog. Decoys being paid big bucks to get bit once in a while instead of groupos of people getting together to train dogs and helping with each others dogs and learning together. Now those things in the sport are irritating. But, clubs or individuals fostering skills in dog training by bringing in the best there is to learn from is a SERVICE to those interested in the sport. If they don't loose their shirt in the edeavor and provide a good learning experience they should be commended.

I agree with you 100% Kevin. If anyone took anything I said as if I were saying it's not right for a club to make some money from a seminar, then I guess I need to work on my grammar. What I said I objected to was when someone clings on to another persons skills and makes money from them. I think I pretty clearly stated my point about helping each other for FREE and not this big money dog training thing.

Mike you are talking about Ed's videos of Bernhard and I think your opinion is rediculous.

Especially coming from someone that has TWO links to internet dog money making businesses in his signature.


Ed puts those videos together and then he sells them to people who normally wouldn't have a chance to spend $1000 to fly to a city, stay a few days, and attend a reasonably priced seminar. For $65 bucks you can get a compilation of good training information and the best seminar footage.

That is a good product and there are, who knows how many, happy customers to support it. There are plenty of dog trainers who can benefit from it.

I don't see where your issue is, you yourself said that Bernhards training information is good and his seminars are good. So Ed's product has to have some merit as a resource for training information. Frankly, that is a very good thing to be able to have resources for training information. Every book written, every video filmed, every seminar. . .they all have to take time and money to produce and require someone to make money to be able to continue their production.

Of course it is a money making venture. . .it has to be otherwise Ed wouldn't be able to produce the video's at all.

You are trying to twist that into some underhanded slam on Ed for making money for putting together a product that has value for a lot of people.


You are an absolute hypocrate. There is nothing different being done at Leerburg vs. Altebum or your canine suppliment business.

You are clinging on to someone elses research and skills, you are putting together someone elses raw materials, and you are marketing them to make money off of dog health and the public who wants healthy dogs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> . . .

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . . .and there isn't anything wrong with that!! If you couldn't do it, we wouldn't have your suppliments.

Why is there something wrong with a dog training video as a product?


Where is this high moral ground you are trying to sell us? People shouldn't be able to put together products or services and make money from them? Dog training isn't a valuable product or service that is worth paying for?

I don't -F-ing understand your point. . .other that what looks like a slam on another dog related business that seems a whole lot more successful than yours.

Bravo, VC!! Couldn't have said it better myself!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

To answer Brian's question, I belong to a club in Minnesota and this club brings in well known trainers for seminars (Ivan, Mike Ellis, Dean Calderon, etc) THey charge a reasonable price for the seminar to "outsiders" and club members attend for free. This is part of the perk of belonging to a club...and doing a lot of hard work to make it all happen!

I have known of schutzhund "clubs" that charge EVERYONE and one individual pockets the money...this is along the lines of Kevin's complaint and I won't train with or be part of a group like that...the only reason this happens is because the people involved continue to allow themselves to be used but I do feel that if you are doing this under the pretense of a USA or DVG CLUB then there should be some general guidlines that are followed. It's too easy to rip people off using this sport (note to Mike, there is a difference between charging someone money for something they want and misleading them and taking their money)

Private individuals also sponsor seminars to make training available in their area and to (hopefully) come out a little bit ahead! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I know from personal experience that the money involved for a person to sponsor a seminar on their own is PRICEY especially if you are bringing trainers over from foreign countries.

i was at mike's flinks seminar 3 yrs ago and at ed's last october. so that i don't get to rambling and miss making my point, i want to state it upfront: thank god for bernhard flinks and others like him who are willing to put time and patience into helping us train our dogs!
with the modern techie stuff that we have nowadays, finding and buying good dogs is not so much of a problem, however, finding good training is not so simple. there are pockets throughout the country where excellent help and training can be found, but there are also huge pockets (voids....i call them) where one must travel anywhere from two to six hours one way for training. your dog is crated the entire traveling time plus the amount of time when he is not out training. so actual training time is pretty small in comparison. i hate to say this, but often the very people who are best able to help you train are the ones who don't want to be bothered. frankly, they are busy with their own dogs and getting ready for trials. just the way it is. then the folks who are eager to take you in, can't really do much for you as they are in the same boat.....maybe a lack of experience, no real helpers or t.d.s available, lack of equipment, etc. just a bunch of people with a common interest, but not really in a position to do each other much good. when you look at gas prices as they are right now and think about racking up a minimum of 200 mi every weekend to go train with people who may not know anymore than you do yourself, and even then you only have your dog out for about 20 minutes or so......the seminars and videos begin to look pretty cheap. being at mike's seminar, took me only a few minutes of watching bernhard to know that was the sort of training i had been looking for. i was excited to learn he was going to be at ed's in oct. last year, so took that one in as well. now, i'm sure some of the folks who were there wondered why an inexperienced person like me would bring my inexperienced dog to a professional like flinks. yeah, maybe it does look like a waste of money, but i came away very satisfied and pleased with the result. my little gerda had not been to a helper before and i cannot think of anyone i would rather have to introduce her than bernhard. this is just my opinion, but i am going to share it as a closing thought: i think bernhard has a genuine love for the dogs and sees a real need in this country for good dog training. he doesn't want to see fine dogs go to waste nor do we. so, until our situation improves, some of us are just going to have to rely on his seminars and videos to get what we need.

Ok I'll admit that I probably should have thought it through before making some of the statements that I did about Frawley and his videos. I should have known better. It's none of my business who or what he makes his living from. For that I apologize. I'll say straight out though. I think that a lot of the governing bodies on this discussion board are heavily slanted in favor of Ed and his businesses. I don't think its very fair. Anyone that was offended, I am sorry.
Mike

Mike- that makes about as much sense as the other post. OF COURSE Ed's Moderators are pro- Ed. This is not a paid position- it is volunteer- but you think he would ask someone to help out who was against him? Come on. There are PLENTY of other boards available on the internet where Ed has no say- but on his board he does. Pretty much the same on those other boards as well- except there is a different slant.

The board is a training resource for those who choose to use it as one. Of course if all you do is come here to complain you may not see much value in the posts- but having been on other boards I have to say that this one has the best quality and quantity of posters out there.

Oh- but then again- I must be biased.

:rolleyes:

If you are talking about me, then heavily slanted might be an understatement.



But,I'm still curious about why you feel the way you do. My e-mail is right at the bottom of every post if you want to explain it to me.