I get asked this question pretty much so i would like to discuss it here with ppl that have more insight than me.

Answer that i give (i got it from different articles i read and that beautiful illustrated series by Shaw) is that it is because of most efficient transmission of power from hind legs towards spine. Ofcourse there is compromise between speed and endurance.

Now that i have seen some top dogs in other sports than schH i wonder if all that is true...i mean, shure gait is realy nice and all, but working dogs tend to gallop anyway so why bother?

I was looking through VA list today and one Cito Bergerlust was the dog whose picture i would hang on the wall. Is sloping in east german dogs or west german work bred realy that neded?
Look at this dog:
http://www.duitseherder-heukske.nl/images/yourivhheukske1_462.jpg

i'd say that is going back to the roots.
Of course i might be mistaken <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I would really like to know what all of you think about this (please if you can be objective, i know you all love the breed as i do).

The sloping back is a non-functional affectation for the show ring. Nothing more.

If you look at photos of GSDs before the 60's, you wont see the over angulation and sloped backs. These are physical traits that have been introduced and exagerated by unknowing people who have never actually worked a dog but decided they knew better than mother nature what makes a correct moving dog. Look at a coyote or wolf. They have very little angulation and straight backs, yet they can cover many miles in a days time when needed. Walk behind one of these dogs when they aren't doing their "flying trot" in the show ring. It's sad to watch.

I think we even see too much of the sloped backs and the like in our working lines. . .bleedoff from the showlines and the conformation/KKL system.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Well we all have our opinions on what looks pleasing to the eye and what doesn't. My question is what does the breed standard say?

John, I've never seen breed standards get in the way of show dog people. I showed terriers in conformation for quite a few years and finished 5 championships on 3 different breeds. Only one of the dogs (my old Border dog) could fit the standards and still function as a true working dog. Unless there is a definate disqualification in the standards, everything in the ring is a "judgement call" :rolleyes: . I haven't been in the show ring for more than ten years now. AIN'T goin back neither.

Just did a quick read on standards.
SV-Back
Straight, strongly developed, not to long, weak, soft, roach back undesirable.
AKC-Back
Straight, very strongly developed without roach or sag, and relatively short.
SV-Hindquarters
Any tendancy towards overangulation reduces firmness and endurance.
AKC-Hindquarters
Upper and lower thigh well muscled, forming as nearly as possible a right angle.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> No mention in AKC standards about overangulation. Must be ok then. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I could be mistaken, but isn't a roach back where it humps up? Roaching doesn't have anything to do with the angulation, if it's what I think it is.

I think some of the dogs that we see that look like they have a sloped back/roach back are due to the stack that is popular in the ring today. Let those dogs run around and stand naturally and you'd see an entirely different dog. I've seen a couple of pics of working line dogs in a stack and then standing naturally and the difference can be very big.

Unfortunately, there are way too many dogs with too much angulation out there and without good balance who would probably have a hard time doing the herding work (or most other work for that matter), but there are some nicely balanced showlines as well (IMHO). In those you are likely to see some bloodlines that "leapfrog" past some of the popular males of the past few years.

As far as the herding lines go, if I remember the pics on the Kirschental site, their herding shepherds tended to have nice, balanced angulation with straight toplines. I'm guessing some of the over angled dogs would have a hard time maintaining that movement over the course of a full day's work in rough terrain.

--awh