I saw in another post that true fight drive is hard to recognize and is also not recommended for a novice. Here is my question: How early can fight drive be detected? I am worried about when I go to get my puppy; can I tell when I go to get my 8 - 10 week puppy if the pup has or is likely to have this fight drive? Also, my pup will be a female. (in case it matters) I've already been told by someone that getting a Czech dog is a bad idea because I am a novice and I am still going to get the dog that I planned to (mostly Czech dog) because I am just so impressed with just about everything I have read about the Czech lines; I think they are just really the ultimate working dog. But I sure don't want this fight drive at all and would like to know if there is any way to tell if a pup is likely to have it? Is fight drive something that a trainer puts in, or builds in the dog (like they do with prey drive) or is it something the dog just either has or doesn't? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. I will read the article mentioned but I would bet just about anything it is not dealing with puppies. Thanks again. Jennie

I don't think you can select a pup with that in mind...buy Ed's video on defence to have him show you and explain what fight drive is.

Jennie, I think you need to read the articles Ed has about fight drive. There's also quite a bit of info about it on the net.

Fight drive is not a puppy nor a female trait...Ed gives a very good description on his site about this drive.

So this bet you would have 'lost' <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Ed has discussed this many times as have other people. If I may; I'd like to suggest that you do some 'homework' first and then place bets. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you want a working dog, you sure as hell want fight drive.


Not something to be worried about getting in a dog you want to train for protection or dogsport. Most people worry they won't get it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Fighting drive, combat drive, fighting instinct, etc. is a bit difficult for many people to define, particularly since on the sport field modern training methods, lack of stress on the trial field, have made it hard for the novice to see.
Fighting instinct is not for the advanced or something you don't want if you are a novice.
Fighting instinct is very very important for many reasons.
First it is easier to control than prey drive, holds up when self-defense doesn't.
It is a big MUST in the working dog regardless of the endeavor a person has with that dog.
Problem is we have a large number of great dog traininers in the world who like big numbers and idiots that equate the highest numbers and most trips to the podium as the only criteria in breeding.
They seem to forget that the best sport dog is a medium dog in all areas, and that to obtain a large number of medium dogs you have to breed the dogs of extreme drive due to the simple fact every freshman genetics student learns that the extremes tend to produce the norms.
Why is fight drive better for the working dog??? It is EASIER to control. It is a fair sort of behavior, winner remains and the looser submits and leaves the field of battle. Whereas prey drive is about damaging and capturing a meal, the weaker the prey the less careful the dog is with it and if it is too strong of prey the dog gives up and walks off to find a easier one.
In practicality it has other problems. Prey work is a must though because it produces durability in the dog. It is a place of ease for the dog where it can de-stress.
This is particularly important in the wake of the multitude of trainnig approaches where self-defense is promoted. Prey becomes abundantly important here other wise the dog just plain won't stick around.
Is self-defense bad??? No, but as a normal working drive it should not be predominant it should not be promoted...eventhough it currently seems the fad....and ceretainly shouldn't be bred in a manner that promotes a bunch of this as a predominant working drive.
OK, enough, I'll get off my soap box now.

Well, now I have finally found Ed's article and it states that you can not see fight drive in a very young dog, so I guess that there is no way to tell. Also says thd dog must have the genes for it, but also the training to gain the confidence level (which seems to be the reason a young dog will not have fight drive - lack of confidence) It also says that real fight drive is pretty rare, so I guess that not too many people have a dog with fight drive; if that is the case then it is not needed for a working dog, a police dog yes, but for a Schutzhund dog, probably not. So I am not going to worry about it because the chances are slim to none that I would happen to get a dog with fight drive anyway. But, if it were possible I would still avoid it because it does say in Ed's article that this dog is not for the novice handler... though I suppose if I had the dog from a puppy, by the time it aqcuired this fight drive I wouldn't be a novice any more... Anyway, doesn't sound like much to worry about getting it in my pup. Thanks. Bye. Jennie

Unfortunately you are going to have to look closely to find fight drive in many police dogs as well. Of the 9 patrol dogs in my training group, I’d say a wee bit more than ½ display various degrees of fight drive.

Maturity is an important factor… some of our dogs were obtained at very young ages and the fight in the dog did not “come out” until they hit 2 and ½ . You can have “sleeper dogs” and you can have those that display it at a younger age.

I think a nice show of fight drive in a dog comes with passive biting. The dogs with nice fight drive are like prize fighters when the bell sounds….. they walk right in swinging…. no stimulation…. no submissiveness from the decoy… just “ding ding”

Matthew,
you said 'ding ding' and it sounded familiar to me...dog that looks as it is on standby(nah, she looks as she is sedated <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ), and than just 'flips'. No stimulation, just knowing its 'sparing partner' is there.

But i might be mistaken, cuz she likes to choke herself with the sleeve(or some decoys body part)... yea pray definitely there.

Kevin,
you said fight drive is easier to control. I don't really understand what you mean?
Easier to control than pray locked dog or what? Or you were talking about the same thing as Matthew; calm dog that does not bounce of the walls as idiot all the time. Untill fight is on that is.

I handled a Military Working Dog for a couple of years that had a pronounced fight drive. The USAF claimed he was a Malinois but that was only because according to them a dog has to be either a Malinois or a German Shepherd. He was most likely a Malinois/American Pitbull or something similiar cross.

Anyhow, this dog was exactly like Matthew described. You could put a decoy in a bite suit in front of you and the dog, Bart, would just sit next to me calmly with his tongue hanging out of his mouth. I could send him on a passive bite and even if the decoy just stood there Bart would stare the decoy in the eyes and bite harder and shake his head slightly as if daring the decoy to fight him. I had the opprotunity to catch him for another handler when I was moved to a Kennel Master position and it was truly impressive and slightly disturbing to have him on a sleeve in front of you. The best way to describe it was it looked just like he was a bully daring you to fight him because he was just that bad-a**. When he would hit you on a prey bite he would jump through the air and turn his body side-ways to knock you down. If you would fight him and then go passive he would try to spin you around and trip up your legs and drag you to the ground. In the muzzle, he would always go for the head and face if he could get you on the ground which he usually did by kidney punching you with the agitation muzzle if you ran away.

I've never seen another dog like him. He was truly one of those dogs that you always felt safe with when you had to clear a building after an alarm. Unfortunately, cancer claimed him last year.

Ivan asks:
"Kevin,
you said fight drive is easier to control. I don't really understand what you mean?
Easier to control than pray locked dog or what? Or you were talking about the same thing as Matthew; calm dog that does not bounce of the walls as idiot all the time. Untill fight is on that is."

Simple. Prey is a very hard thing to control if it is extremely high. the dog is very durable and feels little disconfort. It is also a bit of an anti-social thing...think of the pack members fighting over a kill and running off with it. How many people have problems with their dogs dragging the sleeve behing the decoy and keeping it from the handler when they approach???.
Fight drive is more social, assuming the dog understands its position in the heirarchy of the handler dog relationship....no rank issues...then the dog understands that it fights at the permission of the pack leader only. This simply fits intot he way a dog feels about their relationship in the pack.
Now I'm not a big pack theory person. But, the dog historically and evolutionarily has pretty much exchanged its pack relationship with a its human relationship.
This observation isn't simply mine. How many times has a person who hasn't fixed the rank issues in a dog been unable to assert good control over the dog?? They either get it done or the dog gets passed to someone who is capable of doing so and the problem is solved. We see it all the time.