Bitch sleeping by pool in a fenced-in area.
She hears her master yelling at two goblins in the barn. The woman did not call the dog but the Dog scales the fence, attacks one goblin (the other runs away). The bitch knocks the bad guy down and latches on to his upper arm. The Goblin uses the free hand to repeatedly stab the dog with a screwdriver. Despite the multiple stabbings the dog continues to hold on to the bad guy. Finally help shows up, the woman takes the dogs collar and calls her off.

I'm curious, if this dog were a GSD how would you describe its actions, drives etc. When I first read this I was surprised that the dog did not attempt to kill the bad guy, but just held him. Any thoughts?

You can find the original story here, it is slow to load.

http://www.rhodesianridgeback.org.za/newsletter/RRIF_0103.pdf

A GSD's drives are no different than any other dog. Had the Ridgeback grabbed the bad guy by the throat then she may very well have killed him. Even trained PPD's aren't taught to kill. If this dog is just a family pet, then I would say she is a keeper. If she was taught apprehension work, I would say kudos.

Howard

GSDs have been bred to fit the "drives" so they do a good job of explaining GSD behavior, but it doesn't always explain the beahviors of non-gsd as accurately.
I doubt if the ridgeback was protection trained, from what I have read, few people train ridgebacks for protection, the ones that do typically report that the dogs quickly shun the arm in training and start going for the throat. Still, I am surprised that any dog would hold a bite while being repeatedly stabbed with a screw driver. I would think that a dog would either "up" the attack or flee. How many people would expect their trained GSD to hold a bite under those circumstances?

Interesting article. My one BIG concern was this lady still let a couple of small kids reach through the fence and pet the dog even though she said she was "apprehensive" because of the situation earlier. I'm glad her test went well. DUH! :rolleyes:

I've heard quite a few stories of police K9s holding bites under similar circumstances, not to mention other protection scenarios.


Frankly, that's what we're training for so it wouldn't surprise me to see any of my dogs hold the grip. I think they might thrash and counter deeper into the same grip, but I don't think they'd drop the bite completely. I did have a dog who whould have dropped the grip and would have started to nail the badguy in an ugly way about the head and neck, but he was a lot cooler than the dogs I've got now. LOL


A good number of dogs would hold the grip I think.

Robert,

I agree. If they are taught to fight it should be no surprise that they would stay in the mix. My first partner has been abused on the bite but never disengaged, he only bit harder. My current partner will disengage when he doesnt have the upper hand. And like yours, is prone to go high in those situations. Not good for the scumbag when he is on the ground...even scared me a little.

Howard

I'm not surprised that a dog would "stay in the mix", but I am surprised that it would not "up" the fight against the bad guy, ie go for the throat. Getting stabbed multiple times with a screwdriver would seem like it would trip a switch telling the dog it is in a fight for its life. I guess biting harder, or more aggressively at the same spot might qualify, but I think a smart dog would react like VanCamp's "cool dog".

But it does bring up another question. When you are training a dog to go for the arm, are you actually training a dog to act like it was fighting for its life? ie the dog is in full out attack, but limits the attack to the arm. Or do the dogs show levels of attack ferocity? I guess an other way to word the question is, can ONE dog have multiple levels of "fight drive" that vary based on the level of resistance to the "fight"? ie fight to subdue vs. fight to kill.

You train the hard full grip, so the dog is pretty used to putting everything he has into the inicial strike and hard grip. You train the dog to take pressure on the grip. You teach him that a hard hard counter into the grip when pressured and holding that firm grip will let him win out in the end. It shouldn't be a surprise then that good dogs will hold the same grip and put everything they have into it.


You could argue that the dog might take an advantage by letting go and having to try to bite differently or more vital, but there would be similar benefits to holding the same grip and really crushing it in. For a protection dog the first thing is that the dog has the desire and will to fight it out, however he does it.

Second, I would prefer the dog to hold the grip and work from there. Having played around in a suit and with muzzles, I'd like to see the dog hold the grip where he takes it and put as much punishment into that bite as possible. Legs, underarms, chest etc. Not turn it into a snapping fight. But that's a perfect world, the dog might grip and regrip a few times depending on the situation.

A dog hanging on me really punishing me with a good bite is, IMO, going to limit me more than a dog snapping in and out or re-gripping.

That is a personal preference. (The thing that made my dog cool was that he had the fight in him to work, not that he would try to regrip your head from an arm bite.)


About the level of fight, you certainly don't train the dog to hold back on the bite. You want them to give it everything. A bite trained dog bites really really freaking hard right off the bat, if he's worth his salt. I'd hate to be on the business end of bite trained dog. Holy crap that would hurt like a mother-F-er.

Thomas, you did not mention what breed or cross of..only a bitch and her enviroment.I didn't read the article.You also did not mention any type of training she had etc etc I am glad she was a cool dog with compromise..and wanted to live to see that her owner lived..no matter what happened to her.Her genetics kicked in naturally..without training..She knew her territory. I hope she is okay..and the goblins are in "deep six"..jail wise.Although I do not do "bite work" with my gsds...which they could easily do..I emphasis my view point of them on all of their genetic abilities.Thomas..although I would like to title one of my gsds..I will not fall into any one sect.How would any of my untrained..lol untitled gsds react? All of my pups have their eye on me at all times because of their "natural choice".Danka who is going to be one year..would go for him in barking..but backing as well.If Raven was by her side ..who is her mentor..she would go forward in anything that Raven wanted to do.Danka probably would be killed in following Raven.Raven would want to only subdue and hold..no matter what until she saw I was okay.Hans soon to be two..would not go for strike.he would check first.He would go to the attacker..and if the attacker hit him..he would go for the total force..lol even though he is such a sweet pup.He couldn't take the pain..His sister Zena..although small would end it for that goblin..quickly.But If Zena and Hans were together at that moment..She would take him through that pain...in order to protect.. Boss my new pup..soon to be two years old..who has been been mishandled..has his eyes on me only. I am not sure what his response would be at this point..as he is finally figuring out that a territory exists..that is his.I could only assume..based upon his focus on me..That the end result would be the same as Zenas..But I believe that for him it would not just be in the take down..it would be playing with the results of it..in order to "SAY..Its all mine".The only reason this individual dog would do this..is because he was never allowed to be a pup.........So in answer to your question Thomas as to how a gsd would respond..that is my response.Every breed has their genetic qualities.The love and respect for their provider initiates genetic response..in different layers that do not have to be taught.My little toy rat terrier..would protect any of my shepherds..and me..she is fierce lol She is ten.

Candace -

Have any of your dogs been tested in this kind of enviroment - if so to what extent?
You say your dogs arent trained in bite work but 'could do it easily' - how can you tell this? Have they been courage tested?

Are there any aspect of your dogs that make you think that they will protect to the point of engaging the attacker. Apart from the fact that their eyes are on you?

If what you have posted are nothing more than assumptions - you have made some pretty big ones, especially when you think of the possible outcome of a real attack on you if your assumptions are wrong.

Can you back up your post or is it just wishfull thinking?