Didn't see this posted. I have a Mink great grand daughter and great great grand daughter. Both are very dog aggressive. I was reading info on the BH and also Ed's training article on dealing with dog aggressive dogs. One of his reasons states prey drive. My dogs both have very high prey drive but I honestly feel as though both of them would kill another dog solely because they are dog aggressive. My bitch is 3 years old and it's only really a problem when a dog is near our house (territorial issue??) or if she's sees one and she's off lead (prey??) or if she is on lead and one gets close enough for her to grab (pack??)Is there anyone else out there with a Mink offspring or another dog in their pedigree known for this and think it is something other than prey drive? I want to get her BH later this year if she breeds succesfully this spring and get a Sch 1 next year, so training her not to be aggressive is a must.

first of all, most of the folks on this board are going to tell you to reconsider your time frame. get the BH and schhI first, then consider breeding if hips and elbows check out okay. the reason for the BH (temperament test)and the schh title is to determine if she is infact worthy of breeding....not the other way around.
how, pray tell, are you going to get a schhI on her if "training her not to be aggressive is a must?" maybe i misunderstood what you meant here. maybe you were referring to dog aggression.
as far as training for aggression or training to get rid of aggression......uuuuhhhh it doesn't work that way. aggression is a character thing. its either there or its not. you can bring it out or you can subdue it. you can learn to control it and you can teach your dog to control herself, but you can't train it out of a dog.
i have a mink gr. granddaughter who is aggressive only to other dominant females. she's fine with males and non-dominant females. i just figure its a "bitch" thing. i don't allow any bullying or name calling and don't allow any contact that could cause a problem. it has to be that way and she knows the rules. if she gets nasty, i just say her name and that's the end of it. dog aggression is certainly not limited to mink lines, though.
aggression is a complex and complicated thing. not something to be understood "in a nutshell." by the way, how do you intend to get this dog aggressive dog bred......without some one getting hurt?

Thanks for your post. All I was really asking for was if anyone had a dog aggressive dog and thought it was something other than prey drive. I also know that dog aggressive offspring aren't just from Mink. The dog I'm breeding her with is a Schutzhund 3 from Georgia. The handler (from what I hear) is an excellent trainer and also when people in that area have trouble breeding their dogs, they go to him. They just bred his dog to a neice of my bitch and got really nice pups from it. She's SAR. He told me not to worry about the dog aggressiveness in her, he had the same problem with the neice. She's really not aggressive when I'm around to control her. I'll just have to get her around other dogs and put on a prong collar.

Brennan,
I'm going back a few posts about your dog and I'm going to point out a few things:

http://leerburg.server294.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=147;t=001365

Brennan:
"The guys I brought her from say that they won't give me her papers until I breed her."

"Personally I feel that the workablility of my dog is worth far more than registering her with the AKC. I think I can order her pedigree from the AKC. "

"My dog has not been OFA'd yet but I definately plan to do it before I breed. At least I wanted to but I need her papers."


Ok, here is what a working dog breeder that worries about ethics would ask you is this:
1) Is the bitch in fact papered? And if not, are you planning on simply breeding her without the papers?
2) Is the bitch OFA'd? And if she is not, are you in fact planning on breeding her without OFA'ing her?

I'm sorry that you didn't get her registration papers ( same thing nearly happened to me, my dog was 21 months old before I got his registration papers in my hands ) but here is how this sounds right now - that you're considering breeding an unpapered, untitled, non OFA'd dog. The name for a dog like this is "a pet". No matter how much drive, etc, your female has, these puppies would be pets and end up being sold via a newspaper ad. That may sound harsh ( and if you've gotten her OFA's, titled, and registered since your post on Jan 6th of this year, please ignore my remarks ) but it's the truth of the matter.

And generally, as this is a working dog forum, the breeding of dogs with no titles, no papers, and no hip x-rays is frowned upon. It's as simple as that.

Also, I'm in Georgia - and the handler of the stud dog that you mentioned would take a fair amount of heat from the SchH community if they knew he was going to breed an bitch minus hip x-rays, papers, or titles.

Thank you Will for your post. The papers issue is just about clear. In the verbal agreement (from the guys who I purchased Tasha from) one of them stated I would get the papers after the first breeding. Because of things I have witnessed by these 2 I believe it was never said to began with. The dog was co-owned. One guy wants to give me the papers and get the value of 2 pups, the other wants a male and female pup and I get the papers after she's had the litter. I am going to get her x-rays in February, she's due to be in season in March. Yeah she has no titles and their's no way to get around that but I see plenty of female's without titles being bred and no one makes a fuss about it. Where at in Georgia are you located?

I'm now in South Georgia, so I train with the club in Tallahassee, Florida ( best club I've ever been in, I'm a lucky guy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ). But I was a member of both GASA and the NE GA SchH Club for several years when I lived in the Greater Atlanta area.

You'll be cutting it close with getting the results of the OFA back by your proposed breeding dates, and if God forbid, she came back dysplastic, have you considered the ramifications of that if you go ahead and breed her before the results are in your hand? And I'm still not clear by your reply, will the bitch be registered or not? A simple "Yes" or "No" answer would be nice. If she is not registered, she should not be bred, period.

And as far as "I see plenty of female's without titles being bred and no one makes a fuss about it." Yep, I see tons of pets for sale in any newspaper want ads that I pick up. That doesn't mean it was ethical or smart to do those breedings.

People can bred to "get the cost of the dog back" or for other stupid reasons. But the primary goal of a breeding should be to improve the overall breed of the dog. And if you haven't titled the bitch, you have no evidence that she can contribute anything to the breed.

This is just my opinion, but it'll be the same opinion of most working dog people. Backyard breeders and pet folks won't see any problem with what you're doing - and that statement alone says what I'm trying to say.

I know that my statements here are not going to be taken very kindly by you, but I'm not being mean here, I'm being truthful.

I've been playing around with dogs for my whole life really. Working dogs for 24-25 years.
I made the mistake of breeding a Rottweiler bitch about 22 years ago, because I wanted another and thought the best way was to rear a litter. Whoah, what a nightmare with parvo and the resultant vet bills and substandard pups as a result. I took tons of precautions but it didn't help.
Then I had nothin' to do with breeding for a long time. I did breed a SchHIII KklII GSD male to a couple of bitches, wasn't crazy about the results and stopped....eventhough this dog was the greatest thing on paper, including the Regional Ch. and a Nationals competitor.
A hiatus of many years and dogs went by before I realized that I had a very fine dog to breed. With a handful of liters on the ground I have been mostly pleased with what we GAINED in the breeding which was quite a few working dogs, many working the street. I cannot imagine today, breeding for any of the usual heard reaons. To get my $$ back is reason number one not to breed. To get another dog like the one you have is the next bad reason...just go buy one from the previous breeding or similiar.
To do it without clear possession of papers???That is nuts.

Originally posted by Kevin Sheldahl:
I've been playing around with dogs for my whole life really. Working dogs for 24-25 years.
I made the mistake of breeding a Rottweiler bitch about 22 years ago, because I wanted another and thought the best way was to rear a litter. Whoah, what a nightmare with parvo and the resultant vet bills and substandard pups as a result. I took tons of precautions but it didn't help.
Then I had nothin' to do with breeding for a long time. I did breed a SchHIII KklII GSD male to a couple of bitches, wasn't crazy about the results and stopped....eventhough this dog was the greatest thing on paper, including the Regional Ch. and a Nationals competitor.
A hiatus of many years and dogs went by before I realized that I had a very fine dog to breed. With a handful of liters on the ground I have been mostly pleased with what we GAINED in the breeding which was quite a few working dogs, many working the street. I cannot imagine today, breeding for any of the usual heard reaons. To get my $$ back is reason number one not to breed. To get another dog like the one you have is the next bad reason...just go buy one from the previous breeding or similiar.
To do it without clear possession of papers???That is nuts. That is a very good point of view. It gives me not a lot, but something to think about. I honestly may just get a BH and a narcotics certification.