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Best dog not always best producer
#70154 - 08/21/2002 09:37 AM |
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After talking to alot of old time breeders (Not old themselfs but bred alot of dogs) it seems quite common that the best dog or bitch doesnt always produce the best pups. You can have two litter sisters. One is a super worker and the other is not as good in her character. You can breed them to the same male and the pups from the not so good females are better in their character than the better bitches pups. This flys in the face of only breeding the best with the best.
Does this mean that Genotype is more important than Phenotype?
I myself would rather breed to an average working dog with a super pedigree than a super working dog with a poor working pedigree.
I would be interested in what other breeders think.
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Re: Best dog not always best producer
[Re: chris jones ]
#70155 - 08/21/2002 10:45 AM |
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Chris
The two sisters has a lot of "if" in it. If they were both raised and trained by the same person and the different Charater, and good vs not so good worker was still the same, you would go with the better worker, however the genetics are still the same. This is where you have to know your family tree of the sisters. If there was no known chacter flaw in any dog in the background, then you would have to consider environmental influience. The better worker would still be the better choice, but the sister would still be a consideration.
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: Best dog not always best producer
[Re: chris jones ]
#70156 - 08/21/2002 11:10 AM |
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Originally posted by oldearthdog:
If there was no known chacter flaw in any dog in the background, then you would have to consider environmental influience. . I hear what you're saying but doesn't genetics allow the ability to alter temperament due to environmental influence? It still all goes back to the genes.
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Re: Best dog not always best producer
[Re: chris jones ]
#70157 - 08/21/2002 11:12 AM |
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Originally posted by Valdes43:
doesn't genetics allow the ability to alter temperament due to environmental influence? Does it?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
-Matt |
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Re: Best dog not always best producer
[Re: chris jones ]
#70158 - 08/21/2002 11:25 AM |
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Genetics are the dogs potential.Environment is what molds the dog. How often on this board have we heard the gurus talk about how easy it is to ruin a good dog by to early stress, poor training, etc.
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: Best dog not always best producer
[Re: chris jones ]
#70159 - 08/21/2002 11:30 AM |
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Originally posted by oldearthdog:
Genetics are the dogs potential.Environment is what molds the dog. How often on this board have we heard the gurus talk about how easy it is to ruin a good dog by to early stress, poor training, etc. Resiliency to stress is genetic, isn't it? Of course there's no such thing as an invincible dog but some dogs handle stress a lot better than others and that's genetic.
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Re: Best dog not always best producer
[Re: chris jones ]
#70160 - 08/21/2002 11:35 AM |
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It does still go back to the genes. A question discussed by working terrier people was, given the choice, would you rather breed to a "house pet" from a great hunting background or a great worker from a unknown background. I'd take the house pet. In the case of the two littermates(sisters) the genes would be from the same background, so the potential is there for both. This is where environment comes in, and who raised and trained them. If both were raised and trained by the same person, there could still be environmental differences, but given good genetics, they should over come any minor problems. This is where knowing pedigree comes into play.
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: Best dog not always best producer
[Re: chris jones ]
#70161 - 08/21/2002 11:42 AM |
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That's why ideally IMO it's great to have a good pedigree with great dogs but even better (i think) if the great dogs in the pedigree were consistent with the method of training you use as there are behaviors that exist and are shown because of different motivations in training. Did that make sense?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Re: Best dog not always best producer
[Re: chris jones ]
#70162 - 08/21/2002 01:05 PM |
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Makes sense. Without the correct training methods,good genes or not, it won't happen. I've also seen good results(working terriers) that were what I call crapshot breedings. "This is what I have so I'll breed it" type attitude. I think with two littermates(the sisters) Both would be worth considering since the background is the same.
old dogs LOVE to learn new tricks |
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Re: Best dog not always best producer
[Re: chris jones ]
#70163 - 08/21/2002 01:57 PM |
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Originally posted by Valdes43:
That's why ideally IMO it's great to have a good pedigree with great dogs but even better (i think) if the great dogs in the pedigree were consistent with the method of training you use as there are behaviors that exist and are shown because of different motivations in training. Did that make sense?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> that is a great point (albiet hard to read!)
if a line of dogs is great, but the training style that these dogs were trained under, is contrary to your style.. it could be a factor in the decision making process... example:
a Purely Positive trainer that wants an agility dog, might want to pass on a dog from heavy KNPV lines..
and vice versa, a heavy handed trainer would pass on a nice SchH III dog that is softer, but was well trained by more "positive" methods..
there is nothing wrong with either, but it is good to be honest about your own abilities and shortcomings, as a trainer/handler
-Matt |
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