I have been looking at the performance of various czech shepards recently, and Will R. if you keep this clean, I won't disclose any of my notes I took while at your home and dinner this weekend, LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Before I go on I know nothing about the bloodlines of these dogs as I only intrest myself with Mal lines. I have IMO, noticed in the GSD a stark difference in structure, coat, temperment, and drives from Regular GSD (or as Will R. put it a Rin Tin Tin) whether they be from a German or even the dreded American lines and the Czech shepards. Whats others opinions on the thought that these two should be considered seperate breeds. I see (from an amateur GSD view) a hundred times more difference between these two lines of GSD's than I do the Mal and dutch shepards. Also, does anyone know if in the breeding of the czech lines if they crossed malinois at all?

Well.......Chris came to our club and trained this weekend, we had a blast and he saw my Czech dog ( the running joke about him is that he's a Mal in a GSD suit ), hence his observations. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
But I'll say this - a WDA judge looked at my dog in action and said to the crowd "hmmm, you see - the Czech's most likely bred Mal's into their lines to make a faster dog".
I was a bit insulted at the time, but I think the judge was actually just making an observation as opposed to ripping on me.
And I see more Mal behavior traits, like displacement behaviors, in Czech dogs for sure.

Just my observations.

And Chris, it was great to see you and your boy in action. He's a niiiice dog!

What do you find so different in structure and drives between the Czech lines and other workinglines? A seperate breed, that would be to much of a generalization I think.
As in all bloodlines you will find a few really good dogs, quite many decent and just as many bad dogs in the Czech bloodlines too I guess.

I am not saying it should or shouldn't be a seperate breed, I just notice differences. I'm not even saying that czech dogs as a whole are better than other GSD lines (though I must admit I am slightly starting to lean that way). Though the other lines never caught my attention like the czech shepards have, but I do understand that could be limited to the GSD's I have had contact with.. however, they for one seem to be square like the mals without the angulation. Their coats don't seem to be as long as the other GSD lines, their coats seem to be darker over most of the body instead of the black "saddle" in the other lines, also, that trademark light vertical line right behind the front shoulders (of which I have seen on *almost* every malinois), They seem to be much more wired up and intense than other lines. That doesn't necessarily mean better if it's all done sloppy, but nevertheless my observations are they seem to be more intense. Their temperments to me are that of malinois not a typical GSD. Now once again, I don't own GSD's so this is just my observation, and opinion based on my observation of the GSD I have come into contact with.
Stig, do you own czech shepards or GSD of other working lines or both?

I don't think they should be classified as a separate breed. The coat and size different is minimal. I own a German and Czech line female looks just like her 100% Czech mother. Has the energy level of a mal, Ava is sharp to respond and hard to a correction. Personally, I think the Czechs are doing a better job at breeding for working traits and not to a breed standard.

That's why it's so hard to find an American bred working dog. So, few American breeders are actually breeding for working dogs as they are for pets. Let's face the fact too many kennels, are breeding for money rather than Quality. Now you're seeing that with some European countries that sell us inferior product at a inflated price.

Just from what you have said here- I would say you have not seen enough Czech dogs yet. There are Czech dogs at every end of the spectrum in temperament and color. Lets not forget also that Fetz' mom was WG working lines. So- if Czech dogs were a seperate breed- he wouldn't exist.

It is always great to see a dog that you think embodies the standard- even better to own that dog- but not exactly need to seperate them into a smaller gene pool.

*from Deanna, whose Belgian born GSD was WAY more Malinoisish than her Czech bitch ever thought of being*

I was so impressed with the ones I saw at the club I'm getting one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The club prez just got his two together and the litter should be ready in July/ August. It was definatley a toss up between getting a Mal or a Czech GSD.

 Quote:

*from Deanna, whose Belgian born GSD was WAY more Malinoisish than her Czech bitch ever thought of being*

Aha! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
so again (as i said on other fine web borad) it is type of dog not breed of dog. In Belgium and Holland people breed for the type, so their german shepherds tend to be similiar to their mal mixes(which are not typical mals also as gsds you talk about are not typical gsds).

Some say it is death to breed, but i say go for it.
(comment about introducing mal blood into gsds
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Lets not forget also that Fetz' mom was WG working lines. So- if Czech dogs were a seperate breed- he wouldn't exist."

Well, I would have loved to spend more quality time with Fetz's mom and examine her a bit more closely, but the fact that she was trying to seriously eat me the entire time I was there put a damper on that idea. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dennis either way get ready for a dog that needs to work 21 hrs a day. My girl never gets tired and has carve a path around my one acre fenced in lot. She needs about twice the exercise and stimulation that my German bred and 10 times my American dog needed.