My opinion is that all GSD types(DDR, West German, Chech, American, White GSD, Show, etc) share the same blood. Their father is Horand Von Grafrath. The Grandmother (on mothers side) of the Horand Von Grafrath named Grief Sparwasser had a white coat. So GSDs carry the white coat gene as well.

Each individual GSD has a unique personality. I'm sure you can find good and bad examples on all the lines. Of course working lines have a higher working drive, but that would not necessarily mean that they have better nerves and are more intellegent.

I don't believe crossing one GSD line with another is like crossing two different breeds.

I know that the GSD breeding in US has been abused, but I believe it is geting better, and I don't believe that not a single American breed GSD can not do any kind of work.

I am open minded and please I appreciatte any inputs to convince me that all GSDs don't share the same blood.

Yes, many share same ancestors, but if you stop breeding for workingdrives they will quite quickly disapear. So just because two dogs have common ancestors some 40-50 years ago they could be very different due to different aims in breeding.

There are an average of 20-25 generations between modern dogs and Horand.

Here is a good comparison. Good horse breeders can achieve stunning differences in horse types within 5 generations.

Dog breeders are no different. You can see stunning changes in a bloodline in just a few generations. . .let alone 10 or more (the estimated numbers that seperate the American bloodlines from any working ancestors.)


There has never been an American bloodline dog to compete at any legitimate level in Schutzhund, or ANY other working dogsport.


If you believe there are no family traits and there is no difference between dogs seperated by major differences in breeding goals then you understand nothing about genetics, breeding, or dogs.


Entire breeds have been changed in less than 8 generations. Changed in body and mind. That is what has happened here.

Let's not forget that on average only 10 to 30% of pups from a working litter might have the drive and temperament to work. Then you have to provide proper training for those pups to reach that rate. I'm sure there are some breeders will tell you that have higher rates, that's the exception not the rule.

Baton,
Feel free to believe what you want. Doing some research and direct observation might clear up the misconceptions that you are subscribing to in your post.

LOL

Thanks for reply. There were some very great inputs, not totally convinced on everything.

I have done a lot of research but never really made a direct observation on trials to compare the ability of different line GSD’s.

I totally agree that breeding goals can make a difference on the outcome of the dog, but to ALL American breed GSDs! Maybe most of them. I don’t believe it was only one breeder that breed GSD dogs in US. When you say ALL you really have to back up that statement with proof. First of all you would need to know every single American Breed GSD in US. Second you would have attended every single competition sport that involves work. (Schutzhund, S&R, Agility etc.) Most of the people in US, unlike in Germany, probably never involved their dogs in any kind of working trials. That doesn’t mean that some of those dogs didn’t have it in them to do work.

When you say: ” There has never been an American bloodline dog to compete at any legitimate level in Schutzhund, or ANY other working dogsport”. I don’t believe you are being realistic. The only way you could know that is if you kept records of every single dogsport, and investigated the specifics of every dog breed participating on those sports held in US. On a guidebook called “German Shepherds” written by Charlotte Schwartz who has worked with hundreds of GSDs over 40 years, on all different fields, mentions with names some White GSDs that worked successfully on S&R missions around the world.

I agree with every advise that Ed Frawley gives on his website, except on his opinion when he uses the word ALL American breed GSDs are incapable of doing any work and not mixing American and German GSD lines to improve the American breed GSD. Maybe I will find out about this the hard way.

I agree that majority of GSDs (show & working) breed in Germany (due to their strict standards) are of a much higher quality than those breed in US. But not ALL, there are always exceptions.

So I believe we all agree that the different GSD types share the same bloodlines. I could write a whole lot more about genetics but it will be way to long so I will leave it at here.

I am not trying to be a pain here, and make enemies. But this is really bothering me and I just want to convince myself that really what you are saying is true.

Barton, see it like this. Breeding dogs that have a statistical advantage to do the work makes good breeding practice. Starting with dogs that have marginal drives, or poor temperment puts you behind the game; why not start with good stock to begin with, and tweak that to suit your breeding goals? No person, with the good of the breed in mind, uses a poor foundation for their breeding program. You are statistically better off with a mutt from the pound.

Yes it is a possibiity that there is one Am Shep out there that is capable of doing work. There is also a possibility that the laws of gravity will reverse, and we will disintergrate. The question is the statistical probability of that happening. Very, very small. Don't confuse possiblity with probability. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Possibility would not be something I would base my breeding program on; I would bank on probability.

Oh, and as far as having to see every single Am Shep out there to eval how there working drives are, here is another anology for you:

The sun is setting in my part of the world, but because I have not seen every single sunrise that has ever happened, I can reach no conclusion about whether the sun will rise in the morning.

Of course not. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I can say with reasonable certainty, that the sun will rise in the morning, based upon my observations in the past. The more observations I make, about sunrises, dogs, or whatever, the more certain my conclusion will be, which, of course, does not exclude the possibility, (tho not probability) that the sun will not rise in the morn, and there is an Am Shep can work! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

"I don’t believe you are being realistic. The only way you could know that is if you kept records of every single dogsport, and investigated the specifics of every dog breed participating on those sports held in US."


You're a real riot. Here's some news for you, those records exist and for the most part are even online. And I sure as hell follow all major competitions looking at dogs and bloodlines. It isn't that big a job, working dogsport is a relatively small community and the info is right here at my fingertips. LOL

There has never been an American showline dog in a regional event, a national event, or an international event for any major dogsport in the world, period.

To give an example of a white GSD doing SAR isn't impressive, there are hundereds of different dogs doing SAR and frankly it isn't difficult to train an SAR dog. Standards are for the most part up to individual groups and they can be as low as they want them to be.