After responding to a post about whip work it got me to thinking (I know a sometimes dangerous thing for me lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
And I was re-reading Eds articles on Protection training and avoidance and drives etc.

Kane clearly showed some hesitation during the whip and not the familiarness of the sleeve. He only took a step back to evaluate the situation... no tail tucked etc. So no avoidance (good thing from what I have read)

My question is at this stage what can I be doing at home with him inbetween training sessions? I go every Friday night but if theres anyting I could be doing at home to help I would like to know. I mean we still play tug and tie out and all the good stuff but obviously he was at a stage of stress since thats what happens... I guess can I expect the same from him next time if he is worked the exact same way? What can I do as an owner/trainer at home to help with training?

I hope my question didnt come off with me sounding too stupid. I have read Eds articles but havent seen it personally yet what happens at this stage or after this stage. Do I just continue our tug games? Is this something only the helper can work on?

Chasity,
I to had read your post and didn't want to come off sounding like I was downing your dog, so I held off. Since you also, realized something was a little off I will respond with my opinion.

 Quote:

He only took a step back to evaluate the situation... no tail tucked etc. So no avoidance (good thing from what I have read)

That was avoidance! sometimes avoidance are big indicators like tail tuck, other times it can be a slight step backwards. I feel that avoidance has levels. Feeling the need to stay close to you is avoidance. If your dog starts to do things like that, he immediatly needs to get some stress relief, your helper should have been able to read your dog and saw that he was putting him in avoidance and immediatly turn and ran away in fear after his next good bark. I also, would have had him do a backup bite AKA prey bite. Now for the disclaimer, LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />! THIS IS JUST MY OPINION
He is probably a dog with Excellent potential, but sounds like he needs to go back in training just a bit. The big thing is how old is he and what are some of the things he is accomplishing now? I would recommend Ed's video first steps of Defense. Provided your dog is ready for defense training. I would also do some confidence building. I would have a helper stand a distance away, enough that the dog doesn't feel an immediate threat and have the helper pop the whip a couple of times and then throw the whip down where the dog can see that the decoy doesn't have it anymore, but the decoy needs to make sure it is in arms reach. Then let him fight the decoy for a few seconds and have the decoy sooth him IE.. stroking the top of this head saying good boy, and giving a passive grunt of pain sound, followed by another good boy, then have him, pick up the whip and slowly and softly stroke the top of the dogs head with the whip soothing him. After one or two strokes let him win the sleeve and you act like the giddiest blond in town!! (LOL, no offense to blonds <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Eventually go to letting him feel the whip, not the handle, snake across his body, dog wins, you praise, then, move to where the decoy slaps the whip on the ground (don't let it pop) while your dog is on the sleeve once, wait one second then let him win, again you praise like a nut! eventually work up to one pop of the whip, dog wins, then 2 pops, dog wins, and so on. This could take a few days or several weeks, just let your dog tell you when he's ready to move on.

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COL Nathan R. Jessup for President

No need to worry actually this IS what the helper did. He backed off gave him a prey bite etc. Seems like he did everything you mentioned was what was supposed to happen. This is where I guess I missunderstood...

Eds article...
"When we talk about avoidance, we also need to talk about being hesitant. There is a difference. Being hesitant is when a dog takes a step back to evaluate what's going on when he is stressed. This usually happens with young dogs that are raised to a new level of stress. Being hesitant is not bad, in fact, it is actually good. Because when the dog overcomes his hesitation and learns how to deal with the new situation, it comes away a stronger, more confident dog."

So did I miss understand my dog body language? I want to learn as much as I can so any advice is good. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It sounds more like a socialization thing to me. The whip is a new thing - give him some fun bites and he'll associate it with the work that he likes.

If he crumbled at the sound, then you might have a problem, but it sounds like he was just a bit wary and didn't know what it was.

I think that Ed talks (think in a mondeo ring comment?) about a lot of good Schutzhund dogs that had trouble with a clatter stick the first time they saw/heard that as well. Sometimes it isn't the nerves so much as the socialization.

I introduce the whip by popping the whip immediately after slipping the sleeve after a prey bite. The sound of the whip becoming the sound of winning.

yes, I think you mis-read your dogs body language. You really have to know your dog to know if that little step back was indeed avoidance but it definatly is a "red flag" that doesn't necessarily mean avoidance but it means "PAY CLOSE ATTENTION". I came to that conclusion because your dog stepped back and then came in tight to your body, that was him looking for you to protect him. Also, Like I said doesn't mean he's not an excellent dog, could be training, could be age. If he is Mature, and you are sure you have a good trainer/helper then it could be the dredded "N" word. However, a good trainer would have recognized that and should have told you by now. How old is he??
disclaimer; JUST MY OPINION and damn it I'm intitled to it! LOL! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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COL Nathan R. Jessup for President

Hes 15 months almost 16. He was next to me but then again he wasnt that far out on front of me either. A step back put him next to my leg. I trust my trainer. He seen that he was stressed and ran off in defeat <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and gave him a bite. I hope that he turns out ok.

Really what my question was about was there anything at home I can be doing to help his progress or at this stage is it something that just the helper can work on? Like I said we still play tug and OB and I tie him back. We still play "games" I just wasnt sure if theres more I could be doing with him at home between sessions. Thanks again everyone for your replies. You all have been such a big help! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

i think that another way that helps 'socialize' younger dogs to the whip is to have the helper pop the whip after a miss early on during agitation/prey work, that way the dog is usually associating the whip as part of the game. later on i have seen the whip used to keep stimulating drive in dogs during OB (he used the whip to "cap" the dog, who is ScH III IPO III, by putting him in a down and stay and cracking the whip when he recalled her she about ran him over! he was trying to build the speed of her recall and retreives. i know that t floyd uses the whip and dumbells a lot in drive promotion.

I understand the basics of the whip. I know there are many ways to use it although in my case it was introduction...

what about my part? I feel that I should be doing more here at home with him between sessions, I just dont know what I should be doing.(Other than the usual play)

You can do some work to socialize him to biting tugs and working with other noise stimulation around him. A empty laundry jug with some gravel in it or another whip if you can get one. While you work your dog, get someone to rattle the jug or crack the whip lightly from a distance.

In general, start from a longer distance so it isn't a distraction to the dog, then gradually move them closer. Eventually, you want your dog to learn to ignore the noise, etc and just concentrate on the tug. Most French Ring trainers do this sort of work as early as possible with their dogs to get them used to the clatter stick, but I think it's a positive for most working dogs as you never know when a personal protection dog or even a sport dog will have to perform with a strange or new noise around them.

--Alan