Hello,
First I must say it's great to have a board of this level of dogsport.

I have a problem with my 20 month old German Shepherd Bitch in schuttz protection work.

I must say her nerve are quite ok although her grip is full at the reward after hold and bark (I'm near the dog)

At the attack the grip is already little less
and mostly at the persuit and hold her grip is reduced again. Also when she comes to the helper she brakes enomously.

I tried on a long leash and as soon as the dog goes for the attack I grab the leash and let it slide in my hand. If I do this then her grip is firm again. I first thought it was the stick what was causing this, but when she is on the leash even with stick hits she stays firm.

With the persuit this does not seem to work also because I think it is awkware the dog is on the leash because mostly the helper has to turn and the leash it in the way. Also the braking does not go away.

Any one has any ideas because for the rest this is a good dog. tracking is great, and obedience is starting to work ok now too.

One thing I read here about Flinks about shewing on the bal. Well my dog does just this she shews on her bal and even on her apport blok.

I thank you in advance

20 months is VERY young for the advanced work you are describing. You may want to consider backing up and returning to the basics to build a better foundation and more confidence later in the long attack.

Hi. Keep on doing the work with the long line and the problem should work itself out. After time have the decoy start to swing the dog off the ground after it bites, say after a bite in the hold and bark. This will force the dog to bite hard and and not chew. I would watch the Flinks tape and the training with the ball that he does, will spill over to the bite work. Good luck!

One more thing, do not have the helper really put any pressure on this bitch, she should be worked in prey. It does sound like either there i a nerve problem, or the dog was pushed to far to fast. Either way the dogs grip can be made better, and the speed should pick up over time. I would stop doing long bites for a while.

I think that staying on the long line is a good idea. But with a dog that has a weak grip, I think it is very important to reinforce the work you are doing while on line buy letting the dog win the sleeve. Rather than the agitator giving a stronger fight the dog should win the sleeve every time she takes a firmer bite. You also have to be careful that a this stange you are not pressuring the dog, like Mike said. Your agitator shouldn't be using any body language that is dominating, he should be using just the opposite. He should be presenting the sleeve from the side making sure to show that he is submissive and your dog is winning by making that powerful bite on the long line.

Just my opinion, but I would hold off on taking the dog off the ground at this point. I think giving a harder fight at this stange with your dog will be counterproductive. At those times that the dog does take a great firm grip, that is when you want to slip the sleeve. Allow the dog to win with the hard bite. That will reinforce the behavoir. The next progrssion that I would use is the bungee line, but that is a little way off. When the grip is better, I would then make it more difficult to keep the prey (sleeve) by lifting the dog. Every time you increase the amount of fight that the dog has to beat, you need to also reward that harder fight with a win.

It is a slow progression. Starting with total domination by the dog with a hard bite, then slowly building more pressure and tougher fights for the sleeve. You must not move along to fast or the dog may shut down. How fast you move will be dependant on the genetics of the dog.

Did I make any sense here? It is hard to post about these kinds of things without typing to much crap.

Thanks it seems I´m been doing the correct thing then, only stop doing the attack then.
Funny thing is when my dog was 10 months when I started doing schutz protection she had no trouble going on the big sleeve in fact from the first day she went on the big sleeve and she always had a full grip. And she still has when close to me or on the leash.
Everything started to weaken when we started to go further in the program the attack and the persuit and hold. And you see this deteriorate.
Reward at HOLD and BARK is full grip
During ATTACK it weakens
During persuit it is even worse.

If I do attack on long leash she stays full but not the persuit. So I guess I will leave out the persuit for now.

I don´t think it´s the nerves who are weak I think she is just to nice, she is VERY social and love people. This mainly due I only got her when she was 13weeks old and during that time she was at the fokker who socialized her a little too much to my liking. Her took her with all other pup everywhere.
The other day because she started having the bad attitude to nip in after the OUT during ATTACK and I was like 5 meters away without leash when she nipped in and the helper gave her a hit on the noose with the other site of the stick and she screamed little, backing off just very little looking at me I then said the command to bark and hold again and she went right back to it were she got the prey that time.

Dave:

20 months too young to do a send? Can you explain your thoughts on this?

For now, you need to solve the problem of the grip, before worrying about the out off of the man. Your helper from what you describe does not have a firm grasp on reading a dog. If this were my dog I would go back to basic grip building for a while and stay away from formal routines.

It is starting to sound, to me, like you have a crappy helper. The dog seems to be reacting in a way that says to me- nerves. Too much pressure from the helper is one idea. It is impossible to know without seeing the dog and helper at work. But if she had a good grip to start out with, then something has happened to change it. Just my own opinion.

Question- Can you socialize pups too much?

Good luck with your dog, hope things work out.

Vince, for a lot of people that don't start protection work as soon as some of us, then 20months might be a stretch.