Hi all <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just reading one of the articles on leerburg and I have a few questions,if members don't mind answering.

http://www.leerburg.com/hessen.htm

On the above article it states that less than 20% of SV german shepherds are suitable for service work.

20% is not such a bad number is it for showlines ? ( I'm presuming the article is referring to just the showlines not working lines combined aswell <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> That is 1-2 pups in a litter will be suitable...and IF show breeders did select for characteristics that are required for police work, there would be an increase, so whats the fuss all about ? The genetic ability is there, harder to find but still there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

And if working breeders are breeding such suitable dogs then how come the German Police are going to other countries ?

I know there is far few less working line breeders but there must be enough to supply the German police forces with dogs. Anyone have any answers on this ? Honesty I am just overly curious <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks in advance

Hmm, I dont know if this will answer your questions, but I would like to add my two cents here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Why are the SV showline german shepherds not suitable for service work or top sport for 80% or more? so yes i think that 20% is bad even if it is showlines, the german shepherd is a working dog. put a top sv SchH3 showdog and a top SchH3 workingdog next to eachother and see them work, there is a big difference. the difference i think boils down to temperament. an sv showdog can do good decoy work but he is probbly 100% in prey drive, and does not have fight drive. service dogs need fight drive, they need to be seriuos and hard. as for the other 20% that are capable of doing service work, well i think that that is just luck. not all pups from a working litter will be suitable for working either, but i think that the % is much higher. here in belgium we have some dogs that are pure out of working lines but have a confirmation of "excellant", hows that?
sv showbreeders concentrate on the confirmation of a dog, so what will it be like in 10 years from now? 5%? and yes, perhaps if the breeders would concentrate on the working aspect of a dog then the % would increase, but how long would that take and do you really see them doing that? i remember ages ago when i was still busy with showdogs of german lines, there was an import with SchH3. we went to take him tracking, the dog didn't know what to do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> and his manwork was purely in prey drive. want to hear another funny thing, some guys i know with their sv showdogs buy a rotti to protect themselves and their dogs! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> comeon! there is also some questions as to how these dogs earn there schutzhund titels <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
As for the german working breeders, i didn't know that germany goes to other countries for their dogs, but they most probbly come here to belgium then, where the good dogs are <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> lol (just kidding, dont shoot me!)
I hope that i am actually answering something here and not just wasting anybodys time in reading this <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

The article from Germany that indicated that only 20% of the GSD's can become police service dogs was not JUST REFERRING TO SHOW BLOODLINES !! It was referring to working and show bloodlines.

When the SV and Schutzhund USA are changing the rules EVERY YEAR they are doing it to allow these weak nerved low drive dogs into the system. There is no wonder only 20% of the dogs can be service dogs. I am surprised its 20%.

Schutzhund USA amazes me that they tuck their tail and follow the SV like a sick puppy. They TAKE THE GUN FIRE OUT OF THE "B" give me a break - GIVE ME A BREAK !!!!!!

Schutzhund USA is loosing members. The leadership of this organization is a disgrace. They are digging a grave for themselves. It is a sad situation. I have been a member since 1976 and if there was ever a time to kick the people who run this programs out of office its time has come. It’s time that USA grow a set of GONADS and tell the SV to go pound sand on their stupid rule changes.

Lets not forget what happened with the Doberman breed in the past 20 years. You cant find a decent working Doberman today because the Germans dropped the requirement that both parents have Schutzhund titles. Now the breed is in the crapper.

USA take the gun fire away then the stick hits in the Schutzhund One – they are talking about taking the courage test away and making it a hold and bark. !!!!!! These people are nuts – they have been hanging around the AKC too long.

The article from Germany that indicated that only 20% of the GSD's can become police service dogs was not JUST REFERRING TO SHOW BLOODLINES !! It was referring to working and show bloodlines.

Ok thanks.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I was thinking only showlines.
Considering there is definately a bigger population of showlines, they would probably count for a large proportion of the 80% unsuitable.. I presume that 20% is mostly working lines ?

Okay what I'm getting at is, has there been a decrease in working ability in the working lines too ? are the German police unsatisfied with them if they are getting dogs from other countries ?

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Lets not forget what happened with the Doberman breed in the past 20 years. You cant find a decent working Doberman today because the Germans dropped the requirement that both parents have Schutzhund titles. Now the breed is in the crapper.

USA take the gun fire away then the stick hits in the Schutzhund One – they are talking about taking the courage test away and making it a hold and bark. !!!!!! These people are nuts – they have been hanging around the AKC too long.

Well, for one there's always ASR, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just thought I'd give it a plug,LOL!
Seriously, what Ed said about the Doberman is exactly what I was saying to Will R, and Scott Whigham at the last ASR trial (not that they were arguing a different point). I grew up in the 80's around dobermans. My father was into Schutzhund and he worked and did a little breeding with dobermans. They were awesome dogs then. They were all I ever wanted, until the ninety's when I step back and took a look at them, and realized they were no longer what they use to be. Around 92-93 my father got rid of his for other reasons. I wish he had kept his line going, so that I could have those today. I love my mals, but a downright 100% working doberman is awesome!!

ED, you said that the SV messed up when they stopped requiring both parents to be titled. I had this same argument with some well known belgian breeders on another board. I personally feel that both parents should be titled as proof of accompishment, and workability, obviously there's more that goes into breeding than just titles, provided all other criteria IE... this dog isn't a fluke from badly bred litter and line, among other things. I just don't buy this about the dam need not work. Which is their standpoint. They feel as long as her nerves are solid and she has a good temperment and pedigree. While that may produce dogs like A-Tim and others, If they bred based on pedigree,nerves, temperment, and workability lastly as a must, and not assuming workability, but testing the dog through work. I feel their gambling on judgement rather than proving workability. I think they would produce dogs that would blow A-Tim out of the water. I think it would raise the level of dogs out there for the better. For the record they have awesome dogs, but what could it be if all dogs were worked before breeding, it could only raise the level IMO

Chris - one point to clarify here. I did not say the SV stopped requiring both parents have Schutzhund titles. I said the Doberman Club of West Germany stopped requiring both parents to have Schutzhund titled and that was the downfall of the working ability of the breed.

In my opinion when Schutzhund USA is taking GUN SHOTS out of the "B" and "Stick Hits" out of the exam and talking about changing the courage test to a bark and hold - they are on the same slippery road to where the Doberman people went. Which is into the toilett.

It is a real shame to because there are not many more impressive looking dogs than a nice Dobe

It breaks your heart to think that it is hard to find a good working dobermann... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> To think another great working breed has basically gone down in history..

I have never seen a working dobermann but it is always sad to hear that people these days find it so hard to find a good working dog..

 Quote:

The article from Germany that indicated that only 20% of the GSD's can become police service dogs was not JUST REFERRING TO SHOW BLOODLINES !! It was referring to working and show bloodlines.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> that is terrible! i didnt realise that it was that bad!

I dont understand how the 20% is for both working and showing lines, the article always says that the police are sick and tiered of breeders putting beauty before performance, surely this cannot be applied to workingdogs?
so this is it? why do we use german working dogs then?
Ed, is it then not wise to use a "good" german working dog?

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In my opinion when Schutzhund USA is taking GUN SHOTS out of the "B" and "Stick Hits" out of the exam and talking about changing the courage test to a bark and hold

Is Schutzhund like that in the states? that is really bad. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />