Linda Walsh wrote 04/24/2005 05:45 PM Mineral balance with BARF diets #73175 - 04/24/2005 05:45 PM
Linda Walsh Webboard User Reg: 12-18-2004 Posts: 194 Loc: NJ Offline	Hello, I'm curious how others feeding raw/BARF diets account for the calcium/phosphorus ratio necessary for dogs. My understanding is that meat and eggs are high in phosphorus. Are the raw bones to provide all the necessary calcium for the dogs? Does anyone feed multi-vits with the raw? I'm concerned that my dog will not be receiving the appropriate ratio of Ca/Phos. I'm exploring the raw diet for my dog, and wondering how to take into account the proper balance of these two minerals. Regard, Linda
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Michael_Wise wrote 11/22/2006 10:49 AM Re: Mineral balance with BARF diets [Re: Linda Walsh ] #118557 - 11/22/2006 10:49 AM
Michael_Wise Webboard User Reg: 07-10-2006 Posts: 4454 Loc: Arkansas Offline	I know this is an old post, but I have the same question. I've heard chicken necks and backs have the right ratio, but what about the other meats ya'll feed. Is the cal/phos ratio also something you balance over time and not every meal? Is it ok to have chicken as the staple in the diet(3 or 4 days a week) and other rmbs the other days to add variety? Is there any way to figure meat:bone?
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Jan Williamson wrote 11/22/2006 11:05 AM Re: Mineral balance with BARF diets [Re: Michael_Wise ] #118561 - 11/22/2006 11:05 AM
Jan Williamson Webboard User Reg: 08-10-2005 Posts: 483 Loc: NE Pennsylvania Offline	There are as many different ways to feed raw as there is food, but I think most people will agree that the ratio is important. I follow the formula of 60% RMBs, 35% muscle meat, and 5% organ meat daily. I know a lot of people are somewhat relaxed (and I wish I could be!)about their daily menus and figure the ratio over the course of a week, but I am more rigid and like to have my portions equal at each meal. Just my hangup, but if you have the general formula, you can tweak your menus as necessary. Also, chicken backs, necks and wings are the main RMBs in my dogs' meals. I do use pork necks and riblets occasionally, but I vary my muscle meat more than my RMBs. Personal choice, nothing else. As you think, so shall you be.
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Connie Sutherland wrote 11/22/2006 11:23 AM Re: Mineral balance with BARF diets [Re: Michael_Wise ] #118567 - 11/22/2006 11:23 AM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	The idea is to feed as close to what the dog would eat in nature, in prey-plentiful conditions. Backs and necks are approximately the same ratio of bones to meat (which is, basically, the same as saying calcium to phosphorous, like shells to egg) as the whole animal, if the dog leaves the biggest heaviest weight-bearing bones. I think these FAQs answer your questions, except one: Do you balance over time as opposed to every meal? Yes, you can, IMO. If you think of animals in nature, that's what they end up doing, gorging on meat after a kill, then later eating the bones and the meat attached to them, then maybe eating berries and fallen ripe produce, and so on. http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm#meat http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#ratio http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#sup http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#rec http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#plans P.S. I am much more of a proponent of daily salmon oil (with Vitamin E) supplementation than the NJ Boxers site. The Leerburg feeding plan is, too: http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm The evidence for marine sources of Omega 3s gets better every day. JMO!
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Connie Sutherland wrote 11/22/2006 11:25 AM Re: Mineral balance with BARF diets [Re: Jan Williamson ] #118568 - 11/22/2006 11:25 AM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	Quote: jan williamson There are as many different ways to feed raw as there is food, but I think most people will agree that the ratio is important. I follow the formula of 60% RMBs, 35% muscle meat, and 5% organ meat daily. I know a lot of people are somewhat relaxed (and I wish I could be!)about their daily menus and figure the ratio over the course of a week, but I am more rigid and like to have my portions equal at each meal. Just my hangup, but if you have the general formula, you can tweak your menus as necessary. Also, chicken backs, necks and wings are the main RMBs in my dogs' meals. I do use pork necks and riblets occasionally, but I vary my muscle meat more than my RMBs. Personal choice, nothing else. I tend to vary the "extra" muscle meat more than the RMBs, too, and with me, too, it's just my personal choice. :> And, like Jan, I tend to aim for daily balance. But I don't believe that it's actually necessary.
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Jan Williamson wrote 11/22/2006 11:38 AM Re: Mineral balance with BARF diets [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #118569 - 11/22/2006 11:38 AM
Jan Williamson Webboard User Reg: 08-10-2005 Posts: 483 Loc: NE Pennsylvania Offline	I should state that part of my reason for balancing each meal is that I find that if my meals are too much bone, my dogs end up somewhat constipated, and, likewise, too much meat, their stools are much too soft for my liking. Like Connie said, aim for what nature intended and what works best for you. As you think, so shall you be.
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Michael_Wise wrote 11/22/2006 11:48 AM Re: Mineral balance with BARF diets [Re: Jan Williamson ] #118570 - 11/22/2006 11:48 AM
Michael_Wise Webboard User Reg: 07-10-2006 Posts: 4454 Loc: Arkansas Offline	So when you add extra muscle meat or a rmb with more meat:bone(pork neck bones) do you add bone or egg shell powder? If so, how do you know how much to add?
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Connie Sutherland wrote 11/22/2006 11:57 AM Re: Mineral balance with BARF diets [Re: Michael_Wise ] #118571 - 11/22/2006 11:57 AM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	I don't, no. The 60/35% (RMB and muscle meat) ratio is good, IMO. The muscle meat falls into the 35%. If I were feeding something with hugely more meat than bone, I'd eyeball it and decide whether it was 60/35 all by itself and then leave out the "extra" muscle meat that day. I try not to supplement with shell or bone powder. I try to stay within the Billinghurst ratios. For me, that means that when I feed weight-bearing bones, they're ground. For some people, they supplement calcium when weight-bearing bones are the main RMB. I find it easier NOT to have unground weight-bearing bones be the main RMB, because I find it tricky to figure that 800 mg. calcium per pound of muscle meat, because the RMBs plus muxcle meat in the Billinghurst 60/35 already accounts for the calcium ratio.
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Joe Valenzuela wrote 11/22/2006 12:03 PM Re: Mineral balance with BARF diets [Re: Jan Williamson ] #118572 - 11/22/2006 12:03 PM
Joe Valenzuela Webboard User Reg: 10-04-2006 Posts: 55 Loc: Massachusetts Offline	Quote: jan williamson I should state that part of my reason for balancing each meal is that I find that if my meals are too much bone, my dogs end up somewhat constipated, and, likewise, too much meat, their stools are much too soft for my liking. Interesting! I feed my dog raw, mainly the prepackaged kind in the form of Bravo and The Honest Kitchen, and my dog been battling intermittent soft stools. I've seemingly been able to solve the problem by supplementing with digestive enzymes and probiotics, but I now wonder if my dog is not getting enough calcium. My only issue with adding RMBs to his diet is that they seem to transform my otherwise submissive and very well-behaved dog into one who will aggressively guard his "high value" RMBs. I've posted about this in another thread, and the general consensus is to "leave well enough alone" if he is great is all other aspects of life. I hate the thought of adding pills or powders instead of real food, but given his RMB-induced aggression, would I be better off adding some calcium to my dog's Bravo/THK diet than nothing at all?
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Connie Sutherland wrote 11/22/2006 12:05 PM Re: Mineral balance with BARF diets [Re: Connie Sutherland ] #118573 - 11/22/2006 12:05 PM
Connie Sutherland Moderator Reg: 07-13-2005 Posts: 31571 Loc: North-Central coast of California Offline	I found that early on, if I followed the sample meals in any Billinghurst-based plan (like the links posted above) rather than trying on my own to keep the ratios in line, it was easier. As I went along, it clicked (for me) what made up a balanced diet, and I became confident enough to mix and match. This worked for me. It would have worked to feed a whole animal, too, like whole poultry or rabbits, but it was easier for me to go with the 60/35 RMB-other ratio that replicates the whole-prey-plus-produce diet. I think there are prey-model folks who see Billinghurst as too much RMB, but I sat down a couple of years ago and figured out how much muscle meat there was on a chicken aside from the RMB parts, and the extra muscle meat in the "sample meals" linked above worked out right, from what I figured.
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