This was orignally posted in general conversation a few days ago. Additional thoughts are welcomed:


I have a 21 month old Malinois. When training in prey drive she will not bark, regardless of the exercise. After reviewing Ed's tape, intro to bite training, I determined she is not being challenged enough, she is a strong nerved dog. I emailed Ed, and he suggested that I have the dog in my car, with the rear window slightly down, and have a stranger approach the vehicle. When the dog sticks it's face out the window, then the stranger smacks it across the snout, without being kind about it. After a few times of this, the dog should realize the stranger is a threat and act accordingly by beginning to bark, growl, etc.

Today I tried this with a helper who is completely foreign to the dog. I placed myself out of sight of the dog, although she did see where I hid, and watched. The helper approached the car,very suspicious like, and my dog continued to look in my direction. Once the helper got within 5 feet of the car, she began to watch him intensly, with the occasional glance in my direction. She was standing in the middle of the cab, watching him approach. She just watched. He began to pound on the window and yell at her, with no response. He began to call for her in a friendly tone of voice, she just kept watching him. Finally after about 5 minutes with her just watching him I came over to the car and she approached the window. I had the helper pretend to assault me, and finally the dog stuck her head out the window, going nuts trying to get out to get to him. At that time he smacked her hard. She barked a real high pitch bark and tried to bite him. He continued 2 more times. She continued the high pitch bark, with snarling, and tried to bite him. After the third time with her barking and snarling, he ran away, I let her out of the car to chase him, and she got her bite, with the sleeve relinquished to her at the end.

The question is, I think she showed signs of defense rather than avoidance, although not what I had expected. I thought she would approach him as he circled the car, atleast when he was at the window enticing her to come to him. Was she avoiding the helper by not approaching the window, and by not reacting? She did keep her eyes on him all of the time. I thought it odd that it finally took me to get involved to even get her to react to him. She was certainly aware of his threats, but she just watched him. I am thinking she was not bothered by him one bit. She didn't ignore him, atleast I think not. She was only threatened once she saw me being assaulted. Am I going in the right direction with this? Any thoughts? (without harsh criticism please)

I have the disagree with Ed there. You can't promote a prey bark by smacking a dog across the chops, lol. That type of scenario would work on the street where a defensive bark is necessary, but not for sport.

Having a helper force her to bark in defense will not help her to bark out of sheer frustration for prey. You can't just translate a defensive bark over to a prey bark, as the two types of barks are not the least bit related. In defense, the dog is in a completely different mind set, saying something completely different. Like I said before, when you combine prey and defense together to do bitework, you only confuse your dog and get negative results.

If you're in a dog sport like Schutzhund, all the agitation should be done in prey only. In Schutzhund, the focus is not really on the helper, but just on the sleeve. All the barking is done out of sheer frustration to bite that sleeve. Frustration is the answer, without any threatening gestures from the helper; NO DEFENSE.

If you have to, find another helper to work her with. Dogs respond a little differently to each and every person. Also, like another guy said, you could try tying her out in a line with other dogs that are good barkers. Some believe barking is a learned behavior, so that method may work for you as long as the other dogs are not too much of a distraction. Good luck.

Watch the top 10 protection dogs in the BSP, you think they will be doing the bark and hold in prey? Give me a -F-ing break.

Mike, your comments are totally bassackwards.

Vancamp, you're way off the subject. There's club level, and then there's the BSP(which I don't remember anyone mentioning). You give me a fuggin break assjack. Try posting a comment that useful, as I don't think this person is applying for the BSP just yet, lol.

People try to combine Schutzhund with personal protection in the same training scenarios, and that's the first mistake. One is real, one is not. Nobody will ever convince me there is even the slightest bit of defense pressured on a dog during a Schutzhund trial, even if it's at the BSP. If there is, it's not intentional. It's either the helper's mistake, or at fault of the dog.

I see a lot of tough dogs working in extreme prey drive that hit you like a bomb, and dogs that work in extreme fight drive to win the sleeve over the helper. But definately no REAL defense, and it takes a careful eye to see that. If there was any defense pressured on a dog, you would see the helper wearing a little more body armor, lol. They're not stupid, that's for sure. And you wouldn't see 99% of those bites directed at the prey.

Perhaps I should clarify my intentions with this dog.....

I am currently working to prime her for certification as a PSD at a future point in time. I train with a handler/trainer certified through Utah POST. He was trained by Wendell Nope. I currently own a security company and will need to have a dual purpose dog available in the near future. This dog will fill that purpose. Also, I am finishing up my degree in Criminal Justice. I am planning to test with a local agency once that degree is finished. I hope by that time I will have a dog who is certified, or at least darn close. This dog is not a sport dog, and has not been worked in that direction, at least not to my knowledge. When we train, we try to make it real life scenarios, rather than trial scenarios. With this in mind, Mike, are your thoughts still the same?

No, defense is a whole different ballgame. I assumed sport because of the question asked about barking in prey.

My previous post on your question in which the helper makes eye contact during step 1, I feel very strongly about as an idea of how to properly build up a dog's confidence for a real-life encounter. There are lots of effective methods to build up a dog. But there's no better way than to break it down into steps, or a series of fights which lead to the ultimate fight in the end.

Originally posted by Mike Sanchez:
a series of fights which lead to the ultimate fight in the end. Yikes, Mikey, this sounds scary ! Will the dog survive the ULTIMATE fight??? Watch the next season's premiere...

Perhaps FOX network would be interested in purchasing the rights to a reality show based on the build up to that fight.....then America can vote on the outcome......or not <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Step by step.....gotcha!

That's a figure of speech Renee...ya get it? I put it there just for you.

Thanks for setting me straight, babe. And I do appreciate special attention. What do I know from figures of speech? English is not my native language <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> . But then from reading most of the posts here looks like I’m in the majority! Makes me feel good... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Now back to the topic ...