I need some training ideas for working with my work dog on the “sit” by hand and voice from the down at a distance. It’s always been difficult to work with him on this issue. He’s good to about 30 feet…. Any further and I get no response from him.

Last time this happened we used heavy compulsion to correct the issue. We strung a thin rope from the pinch, through a pulley in the building to myself so I could administer the correction with the added ability to set placement.

I tried an all motivational approach by firing the ball at him when he sat but all that did was make his sits sloppy.

I’m sure part of the problem (if not all) stems from the heavy work we do on the down. His recall is a down, his outs are followed by a down. 99% of the time he’s only released from the down when I am with him.

He runs flawless obedience routines except for this one issue. Unfortunately we have to perform the sit from the down twice in certification.

Ideas???

Why do you need him to do a sit from a down??

i'm no expert, but it seems to me that there's just a hint of uncertainty on exactly what "sit" means. a test i learned from a more experienced trainer than myself is to hide completely out of sight (behind a tree, around a corner, even using a walkie-talkie) and give the sit command and see if the dog reacts without any verbal or body cues - even the ones you wouldn't think would be noticeable.

if he won't, it sounds like you just need to some equally "heavy work" on sit for a while until he does do that. then you could go back to re-introducing and reinforcing the hand signals as well.

my dog will sit from a down, but unfortunately i can't tell you how i did it because it was never an issue i had to work on specifically - it just turned out that way.

good luck.

He needs it for the certification.


Matt, if I understand what you're saying, the dog will sit fine till you are about 30 feet out? Is that correct?

And I assume that you're not using the ball anymore?

VC: Yes... he sits fine until I'm 30 feet away. When I'm within 30 feet he will go up and down like a well oiled hinge. Once I hit that 30 foot mark and he goes into a down he won't come back up into the sit.

Generally I use a medium kong on a rope for his obedience work. When I periodically started pitching him his reward from a distance upon sitting he began to get sloppy, often bringing his a$$ up in anticipation of his reward.

I then began to walk back to him with the reward but the time delay is making the kong more of a release and not a reward for the behavior I want.

Kristen: I need it for my NAPWDA certification. You have to transition the dog from a down into a sit twice, once by voice and once by hand signal. Fortunately it’s judged on a pass/fail based on the dog’s overall obedience so there is no issue there. Having this problem drives me to correct it. Mediocrity in a police dog drives me nuts.

Chris: He knows the command. His obedience work is outstanding. There is just some conflict in training that’s causing this that I can’t figure out.

Matt, Do you do lots of random sits from a distance?

Matt,
I had a dog that use to have this problem, and what I did was put him at the down next to a stake (sat flush in the ground as to not attract the dogs attention to it) I had it in the ground with a swivel on the end, and I had a 1 & half foot length leash that I had made with a cable hook on both ends. I put him in t he down and hooked him to the stake. As I would go to approach him and he would attempt to rise (forgot to mention he was on a prong collar) he would automatically correct himself, and I would also re-enforce the down command to him, so he thinks I had something to do with the correction. Once over to him I would bend over and unhook the short lead and continue to step on it holding it down, and upon giving him the sit command, release it from under my foot. I also, found this useful the stepping part that is, for dogs who anticipate the commands. This worked very well for me.

Just curious, Matt (and please excuse my ignorance), do you actually measure the distance with a tape measure, or are you estimating the 30 feet? I think if I were having this problem, I'd measure out the distance and use small, inconspicuous markers such as carpenter's chalk, to mark the 30 foot mark. Start off with a couple of really easy ones just to prime him, then back off to the 30 foot mark and after a few successful reps, back up just like TWO inches max. Make the distance so unnoticeable to the dog that you might as well be at 30 feet for all he knows. Just back up in teensy tiny one to two inch increments with each training session, until before you know it, you're backed off a few feet. It could just be that 30 feet is sort of a training "hump" for your dog, and that by increasing the distance unnoticeably, you can get him over the hump.
Is there a particular distance that you need him to do this at for your certification?

Lisa: I’m estimating the distance. This exercise is done at a distance of between 10 and 30 feet. I’ve never had a Master Trainer NOT make me do it from 30 feet.

Bob: I don’t do a lot of random sits…. That’s probably a really good idea. Start them in short with a toy reward and then increase the distance ever so little as Lisa suggested

Chris: We’ve used that exercise in our training group when we need to work on downs with some of the “creepers”.

Matt ,

Most of the dogs I've dealt with having this problem fail there distance commands because they are too stressed . They usually associate that distance as being stressful because they have had too many negative things happen at that distance(fail sit handler returns to dog and gives correction). What went from a dog failing a distance command out of disobediance and being corrected for it snowballs into a dog failing the same command next time out of confusion or stress . They want to do the right thing but they are just too wound up to know what that right thing is .

When doing distance commands I usually have the handlers return often to there dogs from the distance to calmly praise there dog or to give a treat without letting the dog break from whatever position it was in (down or sit). This is just to chill the dog out so he associates this(distance commands)with a good thing AND that when he sees you coming towards him he doesn't automatically think you're coming to correct him . If the dog fails the command I also have them back off on there corrections a bit. It maybe a verbal "No" with the handler putting the dog into the proper position calmly with or without a physical correction , depends on the dog. Also when the dog does the command properly I have them calmly praise the dog and then return to him and calmly pet him or give a treat . Once again all done without letting the dog break the sit .

BUT before I do any of this I usually take a few steps back in training . I have the handler go back to being in front of the dog on a 6' lead and get several reps in using hand and voice commands(at same time) . It depends on the dog but most I have give a pop on the lead . I try to make the entire process calm . I vary my reward from verbal to giving food every once in awhile (never letting them break from the sit) . I then have them vary there commands from hand only , voice only , hand and voice together . When they are solid on that I slowly increase the distance . I do this to decrease the likelihood or amount of times the dog will fail the distance commands so I don't have to return to him and give a correction which will bring the dogs stress level back up .

Once the dog has been consistant at distance commands for awhile and he fails a command out of disobediance I return to the level of correction the dog was used to getting for it in the past but will take a step back if I see this caused him to fail the next one because of the correction.

I also make sure my obediance isn't too routine . I mix everything up . I don't get too much into doing the entire 4 command distance routine . I'll do a down , sit by whatever and then maybe do some passbys or something else doesn't matter just so he doesn't know what's coming next .The random sits , down , stays as mentioned are good also .After the session is ended on a good note the dogs rewarded with his toy .

Biggest thing is I have the handlers calm the whole process down .