I am doing some helper work with this holandese s. mix that is in training for PH1. Problem is that dog is very eager to bite, and upon finding me in the wood (some 150m from start) he will bite and hold for 5 to 10s, sometimes even bring me down(not so much any more, _that_ was my mistake). This all happens when he is not wearing his e-collar.

Thing is, after reading mr. Sheldahl article on PSD bark and hold i see it as my mistake (i am very green at this, my balance is still bad but i try to learn) and would like to know what to do with a dog like that (or where do i make mistake)).

Dog comes running towards me and i do look him in the eyes and stand still. Other times when he does not bite his barking is weak and i have to yell at him to bring it up, but that leads to bite sometimes. I guess he is not seeing me as a threat ?

YOur trying to do two things at once. The find, and the bark and hold. Work the bark and hold with the handler having the dog on leash for control. When that's solid, add the find. I don't do bite work with my SAR dog, but I still train the bark and hold for his finds. The only difference is my dog gets his kong for a reward instead of a bite. We teach motivationally. If he does well, he get the kong. If he makes contact with the helper, no kong. He picked it up very fast.

Hi Old earth dog Bob Scott,

there should be no bite in this exercise. Same when dog is searching box in wood (he bites that too, but that is other issue, or is it?). That is why i think giving him a bite upon finding me will only get things worse. He is keeping safe distance from me (about 2m) when he doesn't hold me or he has bitten and let go, but is constantly looking back to where his handler is comming.

This dog wants to fight and is pretty stressed when it comes to letting go.

I'd like to understand what is going on here.

i think that your dog has a very high drive and very strong instincts which equals to a low threshold to get motivated what you need to do is balance your skill to motivate your dog with your ability to dicipline his actions but you have no scope to mess this up or you end up grating on your really good dogs confidence if you are sucessful to let your dog know that the shortest route to what he wants is by acting only on a cue your there ditto what bob said about it randomly reward him with a toy or a bite to build your attention seeking exercises to keep his attention on the decoy.

Thanks for reply guys!

Thing is that is not my dog, i am decoy here.
So between dog finding me and handler coming there are few minutes where it is just two of us and i see it as my job to make him bark strongly and not bite me. No problem with correcting him when he has his e-collar (that even was not needed, damn thing is collar wise <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). What i would like is to make him bark stronger, but all i can do is yell (every move leads to bite).

Maybe i missed something in your replies so sorry if you allready answered my question.

And ultimate reward for that dog is chasing me down. (as it should be, way i see it).

In a way, you have answered your own question more than once...

there are 2 problems here:
1. The dog has been allowed to become collar-wise. Notice I said "been allowed".. it is a fault of training, not an indication of the dog's intelligence when this happens.

2. The dog is not ready to do "off-leash" work.

I would address this two ways..

one.. always ensure that the dog has an e-collar on when training.. but stop using it for a month or two.. this way he will not expect to be stimmed just becuase he is wearing it... this goes for all time spent out of his kennel (I assume he is kenneled when not worked) if he comes out of the kennel, the collar has to go on..

two.. back up a few steps and require the dog to work on a long line, so that the handler can have positive control of him at all times. I understand that there is a requirement for a PHI to do the area search in the woods.. but gues what? this dog is not ready to trial, so back it up... and clean the problems, they will only become more pronounced as the dog continuously gets rewarded for his dirty biting.

Thanks for replies,

so it is nothing i could do to make him bark stronger. Back to e-collar than <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

If it is more powerful, more aggressive, barking you are looking for then there are certainly things that can be done to work on that aspect.

I'd still take the advice given and back up to work on the mechanics of the search/bark and hold before doing what I'd call "fine tuning" of the dog's aggression and barking while guarding.


Certainly there are a variety of methods to increase the dog's defense and/or bring out natural aggression, if the dog has it in him.

 Quote:

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
If it is more powerful, more aggressive, barking you are looking for then there are certainly things that can be done to work on that aspect.

I'd still take the advice given and back up to work on the mechanics of the search/bark and hold before doing what I'd call "fine tuning" of the dog's aggression and barking while guarding.


Certainly there are a variety of methods to increase the dog's defense and/or bring out natural aggression, if the dog has it in him.

Advice taken on taking few steps back in training.

Now for the sake of discussion; what would those things be that i can work with (when dog has it clear that there is no bite in revier). Or does this answer my question? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am seing this dog as easily provoked to bite, and can't see myself making threating movements towards him in reviere if something like that was on your mind.

Are some dogs (with good agression) naturaly weak barkers? No barking, not much growling and it is on your arm (practicly no warning).

The baying or hold and bark and man stopping exerciss are two different things so its better that you break it up as exercises a dog would bark and hold on two occasions 1 if its alerting his handler because its not got a cue from him to go for it and 2 if he is thretened and he knows that he may get hurt if he goes anywhere near the decoy so now you know best where your dog stands i dont know if you have given him the part of defensive training in aggression that should be done if your dog is really mature. the bites you know is part of the prey drive. but only if you get your dog to restrain this drive positively will he do the hold and bark you really need to go back to the basics of training. best of luck
ivan