A breeder told me yesterday that no matter who I purchased a puppy from, I needed to look in his pedigree for dogs with BSP and/or WUSV titles, and by doing that, I would almost be guaranteed to be getting a good pup. Is that true?

No.

Keep this in mind, it's a simple little saying that can easily come true in any breeding...

SchH3 + SchH3 = SchH0

What you really need to look at in a pedigree is dogs that consistently pass on good drives and traits you desire, as well as good hips & health. A consistent producer of good dogs that's untitled and has 2 dogs that competed in the BSP in 4gens of its pedigree is worth a LOT more than a dog that's an inconsistent titled producer that has 16 dogs that've competed in the BSP in 4gens of its pedigree.

When you buy a puppy you take a risk. Hopefully you get a good one. Using the pedigree and looking at all the information it has, helps make the best-informed decision. There are some awesome dogs out there. Sometimes the best producing dogs are not high placing Schutzhund dogs. They might have very low schutzhund scores, but produce awesome dogs. You can also have a very high scoring schutzhund dog that wins or places in the top spots, but does not produce well at all. In general it is nice to see dogs that compete at the higher levels and get good scores. The idea is , at this level it is an elevated amount of stress placed on the dog in the trial. If it were a club trail the stress level would not be the same as it is in the BSP or WUSV. Hopefully the helpers give the all the dogs a consistent performance with the max amount stress that the helper can place on the dog. By doing so, the judge can hopefully see any weakness in the dogs and separate the great ones from the average dog. The question is how does this affect you getting you puppy. While it really doesn't other then you need to find dogs you like or trust people who know dogs and bloodlines, and go off their advice. Hopefully by looking at top competition dogs your selecting a line of dog that can really handle stress, and still function and work within the confined parameters of schutzhund.

I hope that helps...Chet

Chet, you lost me somewhere in your post. lol This statement confused me:

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Sometimes the best producing dogs are not high placing Schutzhund dogs. They might have very low schutzhund scores, but produce awesome dogs. You can also have a very high scoring schutzhund dog that wins or places in the top spots, but does not produce well at all.

Are you trying to say that rather than relying on the scores of the dogs in said puppy's pedigree, I should check out the other puppies that the parents have produced and decide, based on how well they're doing?

What I'm saying is that often a really nice stud dog or bitch, that produces consistently nice dogs are not always the top dog’s in Schutzhund competitions. Example: mink haus wittfiled placed 80 and 48th, Yoschy von der Döllenwiese placed 100, Troll von der bösen Nachbarschaftplaced 48, 72 and 43, Deika von den Wannaer Höhen 47, 59 and 70. I'm willing to bet that no one on this board will say these dogs are not good. They have produced very awesome dogs. However the above-mentioned dogs were not high winning or placing dogs in the big events. Here are a few dogs that I have not seen produce anything special that have one the big events. Anosch vom Adelmannsfelder Land 2002, Bastin vom Kokeltal 2001. I'm not saying that these are Sh*T dogs, but It has been a few years since they have won, and I have not seen any outstanding dogs from them. Perhaps someone out there can correct me and show me a son or daughter from them are doing well. I keep my eyes open and I have not seen anything from them. If you didn't know any better you would think because the won the BSP that they are amazing super working dogs and will produce awesome super sons and daughters. The fact is that some dogs don't produce themselves well. Just because he is the 1st place dog does not guarantee that his puppies will be real nice. It only means in my mind that he/she had good training and a good handler. Schutzhund is a very hard sport at the higher level. One small mistake can cost you points. Their are a lot of areas where a dog can loose points. Usually, really nice dogs that have drive, passion, desire and some unruliness don't necessarily do what the handler wants. They have their own agenda. Sometimes a handler can't get the dog to get the dog to do the desired routines with precision. Hence these dogs don’t make the high scores. This does not mean that the dog will produce bad dogs.

I'm bad at trying to be clear on the computer, it would be easier to explain in a conversation. If anyone else understands what I'm saying please put in your 2 cents on this.

Chet

What you said is pretty cut and dry. The amount of BSP and WUSV participant should not be your criteria for picking a quality pup. I just got rid of a turd that had over 16 BSP participants in her 4 generation pedigree.

I don't think I have to clarify any further what point Chet was trying to get across.

I think you need to truly ask yourself what you are looking for in the adult (i.e. personal protection, family dog, barking only dog to use a intruder deterrent, etc). then do research and try to find a quality breeder that can dig further to match a pup with your personality that may fit with what goal you are trying to persue with "Fido" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Kristen, I know this subject can get confusing. First, if I were you, decided pup or young green dog. I would recommend a young green dog. You can see what your getting drive and temperament wise. It takes alot of hard work to take a puppy to a pp dog.

I think you stand a better chance getting a good candidate with BSP and WUSV dog's than some little or unknown dog. They don't have to win to be considered good. It is about what they produce. Look around don't get in a hurry. Take time to research lines that produce high quality pups with correct drives your looking for in a dog. Find a good trainer and/or schutzhund club in advance.

Chet,you just have to look at your pup's pedigree to see a dog that won the Wusv and has produced well. Tom van 't Leefdaalhof has produced Eros, Elutte who have competed well at WUSV and BSP.

I currently have a 14 week old male pup from Eros von der Mohnwiese. I got pick of the litter and I'm very satisfied with his drives. Eros has great bloodlines and one of the best handler/owners/trainers in the business. Eros's littermate, named Elutte is being bred in Germany. For Robert VanKamp, I have seen Czech kennels breeding to Eros, Elutte and 1/2 brother Gringo Mohnwiese. Think of that, a Czech breeding to a Belgian dog.

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I know this subject can get confusing.

You're telling me!!!

Would it be difficult getting an older pup that had already been started, and working with a trainer over here, since I'm sure the training methods would be at least slightly different? Would it confuse/mess up the pup? How much should I look at spending on a young pup? Wayne Simanovich has a 6 month old pup for $2,500. His father is Butan, Wayne's competition male. The dam is a Sch3 female that has the finest in working pedigrees (according to Wayne). The mother's lines are the very best, from what he says. The mother's dam was his house dog for several years, and was the Belgian National Sch3 Champion. Wayne says that Butan, the father of the puppy, is the best he's worked in five years and will be on ESPN's Great Outdoors next week.

If I spend $2,500 on a 6 month old puppy that's supposedly 'the bomb,' how much would I be looking at spending to finish him out?

Kristen:

I have a male pup out of Buton that is almost 10 months old and is very nice. Different bitch but he has alot of Buton's personality.

What kind of personality does he have? I sent you a PM re: coming out there next weekend.