I have a few questions that generated from a previous post. It was mentioned that if a breeder produces 100 pups that it is not likely (if at all possible) that he/she will get 70 good working pups. If I recall correctly, out of a litter of pups, a breeder will be lucky if they get 50% that could do good work. Please correct me if I am wrong.

My question is: Will most breeders be honest enough with you, if they don't think they have a good quality working dog pup that will suit your needs, and tell you so? The way I took the conversation about the percentage of actual working dogs from a litter, is that if you have a litter of 8 pups, it's likely that only 2 or 3 will actually be able to do good work. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I don't know how to ask this. I am sorry if I am confusing anyone. The problem I see with this is that if you have 4 or 5 people in line in front of you, waiting on a pup from a single litter and you want a working dog, are you going to get screwed and given a pet quality pup because you were not first in line to put down a deposit? Or will most breeders have you wait for the next litter? I hope I have not confussed you. I think I am a little confussed myself. Is it Friday yet? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Thanks in advance for any input or clarification on the subject.

Curtis

There is the problem of to many people wanting working dogs out of a litter. Good breeders tell you that they don't have what you are looking for. Then there is the puppy that tests well and falls apart later, and vice versa. These factors are the reason that when you get an outstanding dog it is something to be celebrated in and of itself. If you look around it is funny to see how many first timers have too much dog, and the more experienced get to little. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
This is the joy of working dogs! NOT

Curtis...depends on the breeder. MANY do a 'first come first serve' basis placement. IOW, the order the deposits/reservations are received that's the order the placements are done...I personally don't agree nor do it this way.

Each pup is handled from the beginning, assessed, and imprinted. This is a long process...probably why I'll never have the time to breed more than 2 or 3 litters a year! lol

Then each pup is selected for the individual program; NOT the order of deposits...For example...a client wants a SAR dog and I feel after all the handling and assessments that the pups in a given litter are too aggressive and/or too reserved for that particular program...They are given a choice...refund or being placed on the list for the next available litter...The choice is the client's. There is NO way that I will send just any pup to a client. I have refunded and most of the time; clients prefer to wait until I have a pup that meets their and their program's criteria. The most important thing is to ensure that the pup is a suitable candidate for the individual program. I have also turned many 'potential clients' away...from my breedings, and/or from the breed itself.

As much as it's important to 'buyers' to get that 'great' pup for their program...It's just as important to a conscientious breeder that they get the 'RIGHT' client/home for their pups. It's a two way street...you need both to succeed.

Brigita,

Thanks for the help. That makes complete since. When you have to turn a potential client down, do you tell them that the dogs you have are not fit for them? I bet that makes for some interesting conversations with the person being turned down, but I think it is a very good idea to screen your potential buyers. I guess that is one thing that sets a good breeder apart from a back yard breeder. Thank you once again for your help.

Curtis

I think as many possible tests that we can give a litter, you can never be sure how the puppy is going to turn out. I have seen the quiet laid back puppy become an awesome working dog. I have also seen the most out going puppy not turn out good. Honestly, it can go either way. I agree that you need to screen your potential buyer. Many do not relize the type of dog they will be getting. A good breeder will deny a potential buyer a dog if it is not a right fit. IF you have good breed stock, the odds of producing a good working puppy is better, then if you don't. A lot of how the dog turns out, IMO is how the puppy is raised. With the right person raising the dog, it will be awesome. The wrong person can turn it into crap. The pick of the litter idea is BS. IF it makes someone feel better to think they got pick of the litter, that is fine, but in terms of quality, it is a worng idea.

>>When you have to turn a potential client down, do you tell them that the dogs you have are not fit for them?

***Absolutely. I tell them that the individual puppies don't meet their personal criteria which they give me on our initial contact (and everything is written down for each client) or they don't meet the program criteria--at the end of 8 weeks. Actually MOST people are grateful for the honesty as they would rather have the 'right' dog, than just any dog...I had a super nice gentleman (PO) reserve a pup out of the last litter...his criteria was that the pup had to be extremely social and would be used ONLY for detection work (a lot of school situations/kids) and the dept. was very adamant that the dog was also to be used for PR work. So absolutely NO aggression, dominance, etc...

That particular litter...there were NO males that I would even risk sending to this type of job...The male I had was superb in aggression, retrieves, but was also dominant and was already beginning to crank his leg to mark at 6 weeks, and was mounting people and all his littermates. A serious pup with a great nose and super sociability to his own pack but indifferent to outsiders and didn't solicit affection or attention from others...but definitely not a 'lap dog' or one that would submit to manipulation by strangers or a crowd of kids...Tuned in to his handler and would do anything for him --environmentally very sound...but didn't 'see' everyone else on the same level as his handler...And had a ton of bite drive...too much for what this dept. wanted. Very true to his genetics and he went to a sport home which requested those qualities as well as future breeding. He's doing awesome in the home where he's at and if all goes as planned...will probably be a future breeding candidate for one of my females down the road. He was definitely a 'keeper'.

The PO was very thankful that I took his dept.'s position and concern over future liability and didn't just send him any dog. Much to my surprise when I offered to send his deposit back...he replied that he had been injured on the job and will take months (if ever) to recover completely... He then said: "...please keep my deposit so that you can continue to raise excellent police dogs. If/When I get well I hope you'll allow me to apply again for one of your fine dogs."

You know...people like him make it all worthwhile and how can a breeder not try even harder??

All my clients are informed right at the beginning...of what will happen if I don't have enough pups or not enough of their requested gender or pups which aren't suitable for their program...And to this day, I've only refunded 2 as the others preferred to wait for the next litter...

Maybe I've been fortunate...don't know...but I figure if one's up front right from the beginning...it's better for all in the longrun...

Chet I agree with you 99% <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />...The part that I will disagree with is "you can never be sure how the puppy is going to turn out".

I am in complete agreement with Bernard Flinks as to the validity and reliability of puppy testing and selections. This was one questions which was posed to him a month ago when he conducted his seminar up here. Given the pup is in the RIGHT home (and that's a 'biggie')...Puppy assessments are(quote) "100% accurate and reliable". And he also stated that daily imprinting and socialization are vital between 5-8 weeks; otherwise it just doesn't matter how great the pup is genetically or how great his potential is at that age...It will never be as good a dog as it would have been unless the breeder did their part.

I really appreciate all the information. Keep up the good work in breeding working dogs. Honesty is always the best way to go.