Hello...I have a question and was hoping that someone here could help me out. I have a 21 mo old mali, that has crazy drive, prey especially. We are working on bite work with him, specifically pursuit bites (like in trials, straight attack). I have noticed that my dog likes to spin the decoy around and around while on the bite....I understand that this is probably due to a conflict with me and the fact that he doesnt want to have to out the sleeve, so the more he tries to avoid me, the longer he can stay on the bite. What I am wondering is how to fix this? I did the bite work with him from the "1st Steps of Bite Training" video, as well as civil/defense work with him as shown in "The first steps of defense." I have also went to a Flinks seminar (June 05) and worked a lot on calming him on the bite, firm (not chewy) grip, etc. This problem seemed to appear once we started working on the pursuit (running) bites. I apologize if I sound like an idiot, but I am very new to this, have had the dog for about 10 months, and don't have a lot of assistance as far as training goes. Thanks.

Lori, If the dog is not spinning the decoy in any other exercise except runoffs, then I would have the decoy run to a fence or wall so the dog CAN'T spin him around. If he spins on all evercises then you will probably have to back up a few steps and go back to the tie-out until the avoidance of you stops. Good luck

Howard

Is the dog spinning the decoy when you approach him, or just in general. Is he on a sleeve or suit? There are a lot of dogs that I have seen do this. They don't like the pressure of the decoy over them. If it is only when you approach then I would recommend a different course of action.

He just does it when I approach him, and I have caught him lookng away from the decoy and at me when he is on the bite.

My Mal will play “spin the decoy” on occasion as an attempt to continue the fight with the decoy after the decoy chooses not to fight, delaying the out.

As Howard suggested we would take my dog to a wall or to a traffic cone to prevent the rotation……it worked real well. Putting my dog on post also helped a great deal. What they did though was only prevent him from spinning, and didn’t address the real issue…. You gotta out when I tell you to, regardless of weather in your own doggie mind you are still fighting.

The e-collar, combined with a decent decoy fixed this issue fairly easily for me.

This is not an unusual problem. I think it arises when the dog realizes that if he can keep the handler from getting to the leash, either one that's being dragged or a tab, he can stay on the bite. And so he learns to spin so that the handler can't get to it. The advice to work near a wall or a fence is great but many dogs learn ways of "ducking under" to keep away from the handler. A good decoy is able to lift the dog slightly, moving him and placing him in front of the handler so he can grab the leash or tab. I've seen quite a few handlers bitten by their own dogs when they reach in like this. Usually those people are using fairly severe corrections and the dog is trying to avoid them.

But an Ecollar makes the problem moot because there's no reaching in. Dogs trained with one never develop the problem in the first place.

Lou, I may be posting asking about how to use the ecollar for training in protection work and stuff when I get ready for it. I've read everything you've written about basic training, and used it successfully, but I may still have questions when I get to working my pup in protection.

Your decoy should have the leash in his hand so you don't have to chase it. I would walk by the dog and not out him a few times. He has figured out your approach means something negative. There are a lot of ways to minimize this problem from the start. I was taught that too much of the same thing will come back to bite you. I would just get creative about how I got the dog off the decoy and under control. do as many different things as you can think of.

Lori,

I agree with Lou that the dog would not react to YOU if you stay at a distance and use an ecollar. It may also not completely fix the problem if you need to move up close. Evidently, if you get up close initially and "out" with an ecollar, there will be no change in your dog's behavior. I don't much like to use obstacles, or decoy movements, because it can introduce new and undesirable habits to your dog.

I might suggest you take your dog by the collar to the bites...and you move up and down your leash, stroking the dog calmly, increasing and decreasing the distance between you and your dog. If you bite train a few times a week, for the next three weeks, I would not do a single long bite...I would just take the dog to the sleeve or suit, hold him on the bite...keep the bite RELAXED, no major fights with the decoy, and have the decoy feed the sleeve. "Out" your dog with an ecollar while he's with the sleeve, but at the very end of your leash preferrably a 15'er or longer) and immediatey ask him to perform a command, such as down, sit or here. This will result (in theory) in your dog desensitizing to your proximity while on the man, reducing his out anxiety, AND re-associating the word out with an uncomfortable feeling that apparently has nothing to do with you: the ecollar.

If he's doing all of that easily, give him longer bites using a long line, and out him after he has the sleeve, succesively "outing" closer and closer to the decoy, until he's on the decoy. And then you begin moving up to your dog. Probably at least another two weeks. Five weeks total. If you expect faster progress, I think, you may only be repressing behavior...not modifying it.

Gradually have the decoy increase the fight level, and then defense, etc.

The reason I'm thinking you may have to move back to fundamentals, is because that spinning thing has yielded very gratifying results MANY times to your dog. It will not be easy to eliminate. Additionally, if your dog is handler sensitive (and I mean this in a good way, ie he listens to you) you may not want to yell "out" too loud, as this may be adding to the "out" anxiety.

Lou...I would appreciate your comment.

Have fun. Andres.

Kristen let me know when you're ready and I'll try and help you out.

Andres, your suggestion to take the dog to the bites by the collar and then move up and down the leash is very good. It's just a form of, as you say, desensitization, teaching the dog that reaching for the leash doesn't always mean a correction is coming. I'd also suggest that while you’re doing this that you also run your hands over the dog, down his sides (watch out if he's been flanked to get him to bite), on his head, on his tail, etc., grasping the collar as this is done and then quickly releasing it. Grab it for a few seconds longer, then leave it. Since this is in the "Training Police Service Dogs" part of the forum I'll assume that this is a PSD. He needs to tolerate your touch anywhere on his body at anytime without releasing the bite until he gets the command. All kinds of things can happen in a fight and the dog should just learn to ignore them.

I also like your time line, taking 5 weeks for this. Some people have it work once and put the dog up, thinking that the behavior is changed when it isn't. I'd add a few weeks to this if the dog has been doing it for a while.