My Abby has been quite a problem! We have put in new front and back door locksets (She learned to open the old ones) Put new dog-proof railing and gate on the front porch. Put both 6 foot and 4 foot fences around the back door.

Abby learned to open the screens. Why are my options here/ I really can't afford to put in new windows.

If it is not when you are home, then I suggest a crate. In my experience with this once they do the escape thing a few times they really enjoy the challenge. If it is when you are home, I would get our resident E-collar guru, Lou Castle to help you. I always left, snuck back, and shocked the crap out of them. I haven't had this problem in 10 years or more. I am sure there is a better way then my electrifying until skeleton shows method! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ok - I can crate her, but only if you guys can help me with a cratetraining/housetraining issue.

She will make a mess in a crate, everytime she is in one - even if it just form 5 minutes. When we adopted her at 6 mo old, we put her in the crate the first night with a nice new bed, pillow etc. When we got up in the morning, she was laying in her own poo. Absolutely filthy, smeared, covered in it. This was a daily and nightly occurrence for almost 2 weeks, when she figured out that she wouldn't get a bath if she pooped in the corner and didn't lay in it.

We have tried:
a) a tiny tiny crate that she barely fits in
b) consistently feeding her in her crate (over 4 months)
c) taking her out for potty extra and right before going in a crate.
d) when she makes a mess either in the crate or at night, her "punishment" is to down stay and watch me clean it up

The only thing that has worked is crating her with another dog. However, we're not doing rescue fostering anymore, so we don't have a dog that can fit in the same crate with her.

I'm out of ideas (she sleeps in bed with us), so if you guys know anything to try, it would be helpful! It gets old to clean up and bathe her 1-2 times a day, so I gave up! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I've been completely against an e-collar, but this is just too dangerous of a behavior, so I'm considering it. Has anyone tried a citronella spray collar? Is it effective?

You say she figured out that if she pooped in the corner, she wouldn't get a bath.. so obviously she dislikes baths and is trying to find a way around getting them. How about bathing her whenever there is poop in the crate regardless of whether she messed herself? I'm sure there's a much better way to solve this problem than the above, but seeing how she figured out how to poop and NOT have a bath, she should be able to quickly figure out that any mess in the crate yields a bath. Also, I believe it's generally best to clean messes out of sight of the dog and with a cleaner that eliminates all ammonia traces.

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d) when she makes a mess either in the crate or at night, her "punishment" is to down stay and watch me clean it up

I was always told that if your dog sees you clean it up, they learn that if they poop, you clean it up. But I also heard a dog doesn't wanna poop in their own den so your dog is already defying the odds lol.

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I've been completely against an e-collar, but this is just too dangerous of a behavior, so I'm considering it. Has anyone tried a citronella spray collar? Is it effective?

Have you ever put your finger on an e-collar? I wouldn't use one on my dog without trying it on myself first thru all stim levels - the e-collar (for me at least) has been 100x more effective than a prong, and the prong was already 50x more effective than the choker I was told to use when I first started training. The e-collar seems to give him the least amount of correction out of those 3 training tools and it also appears to be most effective. My biggest problem that made me buy the e-collar was that he used to run off and play keep-away when he was off leash n wouldn't come back inside. I'd have to somehow catch him which got more difficult as he got older n faster. Now he is the perfect dog and happy as can be.

Maybe you're right about the cleaning up thing, but I should explain it better. Many trainers feel that dogs are incapable to feel guilty - but after Abby, I think some can feel guilty!

As you read this, remember that she has not been physically punished since she was 4 mo old (before that I have no way to know).

I'll come home and my husband will have forgoteen to put the dogs out in the morning and I will smell a mess. (This happens at least once a week <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I'll come in the door, and the dogs greet me. I'll say in a stern but not mean voice "Abby did you do that" and she'll get very very worried, hang her head, try to hide under the table.

Then I find the spot and call all the dogs to me. I rule out a dog that is just hyper to see me and doesn't realize that there is a mess at all. I'll ask the remaining 2-3 each "Did you do it" (This whole time Abby acts like she's terrified so I ask her last now). When Abby actually was the one who made the mess, she will cower and shake and run away and hide under the table ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />poor baby!) I call her back to me in a pleasant voice, have her down and clean the mess. Then release her. And all the sudden she feels better.

BTW I know by smell, placement and appearance who left the present, so no one is getting falsely blamed.

The cleaner I use is Nolvasan - the same stuff the vet uses.

No - I've never shocked myself with a shock collar.

Maybe in her mind she is getting singled out in front of the other dogs and getting attention. I have heard any attention is better than none at all. Have you tried treating her and making a big deal out of it if she hasn't gone in the house? I have to say though, if your hubby forgot to let her out and she had go go..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> You need to make sure he lets her our reliably. Maybe if he cleaned up the poop he would remember better <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Have you tried treating her and making a BIG deal out of it when you get home and she hasn't gone in the house?

Oops, didn'mean to repeat myself twice <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Dogs cannot feel guilt. if your husband isn't leting them out, then no punishment should be given. Asking animals if the made a mess is serving what purpose besides freaking this Abbey out? Not to mention it doesn't work, by your description of having to do this once a week. Stop this nutty "treating them like children process." If you stressed me out like that I would jump your fence too.

I wish I could punish the husband <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> We've nearly divorced over his irresponsibility over a) putting dogs out in the morning and b) supervising them when they are in the fenced yard.

As far as them holding it, we're only talking from 5:00 am to 8:30 am. Three and a half hours should not be unreasonable for a dog to hold it!

I don't want to communicate to the dogs that they all have done something wrong. I want the dog that made the mess to know that I'm not thrilled about cleaning it up, but I'm not angry either. Thus the down stay, watch me clean it up, ok, good, go play.

If I catch a dog in the act, it immediately goes outside to finish, then comes back inside to watch me clean up.

We have had very good results housetraining many rescue dogs that had been taught to mess in their kennels, but no luck with Abby. She is also the only dog we've ever had that refuses to go potty on a leash or when she thinks someone is watching. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />