Hi guys and girls. Have not been to the board for some time in the mean time we started to sleeve train my guy. He wil be 12 month at the end of May. We started slow, I am not doing a lot of bite work with him but we are working with a helper - 3-4 encounters with him. First ones were not bad and my guy understood what was required from him, but unfortunately I have noticed that he is getting a little bit scared of the sleeve if it is not on the helper and the helper is just teasing him with it. Is this a common behaviour for this age, or maybe I am moving too fast or may be we already have to correct something that was started wrong. Plus, another problem: the helper is getting scared and defensive sometimes too as my guys is not going for the sleeve - he actually does not care about it if the sleve is off and he will go after the helper, especially his legs or the other famous part of the male body and it is such a contradiction to the situation when the helper is just teasing him with a sleeve in his hand. What kind of behaviour is this, or is there something wrong. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hmmm that's a thinker. Here is my .02

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We started slow, I am not doing a lot of bite work with him but we are working with a helper - 3-4 encounters with him.

Here is the first mistake I see.. YOU should be intoducing the sleeve to your pup, not the helper.. get your dog comfortable playing the game with you first with the new sleeve, then when he has the grip you want and drive is up, intoroduce him to the helper again, but be careful, all prey and only fast interactions... fast= dog sees helper, helper acts scared, dog bites sleeve, helper slips the sleeve when dog bites. Only do 1 or 2 bites per.

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Plus, another problem: the helper is getting scared and defensive sometimes too as my guys is not going for the sleeve - he actually does not care about it if the sleve is off and he will go after the helper, especially his legs or the other famous part of the male body and it is such a contradiction to the situation when the helper is just teasing him with a sleeve in his hand.

Hahaha good boy! This will go away "hopefuly" when he is more comfortable with the sleeve and sees it as the thing to bite... he don't know this yet. I found it helpful to use a tug made out of the same material as the sleeve, so it was more of a natural progresion to the sleeve. Your helper getting defensive is not good either... it is adding pressure, leading to the avoidence you are seeing. Your helper should be either scared acting or completly neutral.

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What kind of behaviour is this, or is there something wrong.

It's "I'm doing what you taught me to do" or in this case, what you didn't teach me to do behaviour, and there is nothing wrong.. you just went a little to fast without building a foundation building up to the sleeve.

I hope that helps!

Thank you Lonny. Though another concern of mine ( I hope we will correct this with training and proper introduction of the bite tools) is that he is backing off when on heel by me when he is teased by a sleeve. I do not think this is appropriate behaviour for the dog in this kind of situation or may be you are right that he will grow over it when he will learn that sleeve is the "biting gume" for him and he should not be afraid of it. Also we will try change tactics with a sleeve, only without a helper. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here is the first mistake I see.. YOU should be intoducing the sleeve to your pup, not the helper

I'm not sure if I agree with that. For a problem solving technique maybe but as a norm if you have access to a good helper all protection work both prey and defense should be done through him for many reasons.

Vince,
Heheh it would not be the first time, we disagreed, and I may not be on target but I will explain why I say that, then I might learn something, if I am incorrect.

I think this behaviour is happning for one to two reasons or both. One: The dog was not conditioned enough with the handler doing prey work on a verioty of objects, including the puppy sleeve, simulation big arm movments "Stick Hits" defensive posturing by the handler "Frontal stance and direct hard eye contact" followed by prey movments..I'm talking split second posturing, not long enough to hit defense, avoidence or cause nerviousness. Just enough to cause sensory adaptation, over time.

Two: The helper needs work, by the statments made I am concluding that this helper is being to defensive with the pup and causing nerviousness in the dog, the dog will instincitvly use any and all sensory imput to win the fight he preceves, and he is not a stupid dog , he is sensing the helpers nerviousness/fear and using it to his advantage by targeting the fastest areas to contol the situation he is in and win the fight. The dog is learning to win the best way he sees fit, when he needs to be shown that the sleeve is actually the fastest way to win, not the nads and legs, what we see fit.

So in conclusion I beileve that the handler working the sleeve will help the dog overcome any fear of the sleeve & helper actions and premote equipment focus. If the helper is being a bit ruff calm him down, the dog seems to have some civil drive, so the helper needs to premote more prey drive and not do so much work at close range until the target/sleeve issue is resolved. Use the civil work for bark training. Popping out of the blind from a distance etc.. get him going then handler prey work with the sleeve. Or have the helper run by at about 15 feet in front and give the dog a bite with the sleeve tied to a rope. Use the drive satifaction to your advantage, the only thing that he can satify himself with is a tug o war with the sleeve.

So there you have my thoughts... fire away and pick it apart if you will please....sorry for the crappy spelling....

Sorry forgot to answer the heeling question. You can't do that! you need to resolve the sleeve issue before you try distraction work with the object he is having trouble with, "The sleeve" Of course he is going to back up at heel when the sleeve is shown....due to the other problem he is having. But the good thing is now you know for sure he is scared of the sleeve, hence my first suggestion.

I don't agree about the "mistake" regarding the sleeve. I've worked a lot of puppies, and I, being the helper, introduce the sleeve.

Moving too fast? Damn, that's hard to say without seeing the dog. 12 months certainly is not too soon to introduce the sleeve though.

Was the helper in the picture pre-sleeve? The reason I ask is you mention only 3-4 encounters. If the helper was not in the picture, pre-sleeve, I'd go back and introduce the helper rather than the sleeve and the helper at the same time. Either way, if the helper was introduced to the dog before or after the sleeve, I'd go back to the tug. Your dog does not seem to know the "game", or at least not well enough. Your dog should be, at this early point, be more tug oriented than he is, sounds completely man oriented. I'd also consider putting the tug on a line, so the helper can play tug with the dog at a distance, less confrontation. Once the dog is playing the game and enjoying it, have the helper introduce the sleeve, but not on his arm. Have him hold it like a tug, and keep a line on it. The helper can bail as soon as the dog bites, then "fight" the dog via the line and keep his distance. From here I'd wait for the dog to be completely comfortable with this, then have the helper put the sleeve on and slip as soon as the dog bites, agian with the line on. You might want to change to pursuit bites if you are currently doing line bites, or bites that are presented to the dog with the helper coming towards the dog. The pursuit bites will build the dogs confidence, make him a little more in control of the game.

Just some thougths, best of luck.

Lonny:

I'm not sure you read my post completely. I said I agree that to solve specific problems having a handler introduce the sleeve can be effective. So if your reasons to have the handler introduce the sleeve were to correct problems then you and I agree. Why I posted what I did was I got the impression that you recommend this approach for most dogs and this is where we disagree. The two main reasons for prey work are to build a solid bite foundation and to relieve stress. The goal of protection training is to teach a dog that aggression not avoidance brings positive results. This is not a mentality that you want your dog having towards you. When you work prey drive in a ball the goal is much different. You want the dog to see the prey as yours and you allow him to play with it if he does what you ask. A very important distinction.

Sorry about that vince, after thinking about it you are 100% right... the handler way was good for me becasue I have limited access to a good helper, and I think both ways will work out just fine.

My suggestion was for this dog only... you can only suggest an idea for the dog in question I did not mean to imply all dogs should be taught this way... it just happen to work great for me personally, and I think will work good for Vegabund as well. I think it will be eaiser for vegabund to do it himself to totally remove the "fear factor" from his dog relating to the helper. Once he is comfortable with the handler, re-introduce the helper in much the same manor, as Had has suggested, he is also right.

It's all good advise! Vegabund, it's your turn to put it into action! Good luck!

Lonny:

Good exchange of ideas!

I thought so as well! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />