GSD structures
#81119 - 08/03/2005 10:51 AM |
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I thought about putting this under the thread in which the poster commented on her dogs back structure, but then realized it was waaay more than the original poster had asked about... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
So rather than hijack that thread, here is a new one with the quoted comment that prompted my response:
Typically the dogs whose backs slope down are American dogs. There is no purpose for this other than (for whatever reason) that's what the AKC likes to see.
The American breeder would be quick to point out that the back slope is excentuated in a "stacked" position. If you look at photo of dogs standing in stack and then naturally, you can see that the dog's back is indeed not as sloped when standing square. However....that is not where one should look: it is an over-angulation of the rear leg bones that allows a dog to be stacked so that the dog has a "low-rider" look. And that angulation can be seen even if the dog is standing square.
The severe sloping one sees on the American Specialty show dog is caused by the long thigh bones. In a stack position the stifle joint (where the upper & lower thigh bones join) can often be positioned lower than the hock, while allowing the other hock to be positioned flat on the ground.
http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/Ldogs/LindenhillHayabusa.htm
And the reason the American breeders have selected for this structure is that Judges have consistantly rewarded a "flying trot" (even though it is never mentioned as such in the standard) that this over-angulation can bring about. The lengthen bones allow the dog to stretch back further and bring the hind legs more forward in the trotting motion.
The German breeders have gone after the same goal only in different way, creating a dog with the severe butt-tuck, a hunched back look, and long slope (or as Helmut Raiser commented: "... a dog in the front and a frog in the back, walking around with a retracted backside as if a brick-stone is hanging from its testicles.")
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/6164.html
In both countries show breeders have focused heavily on a result that seems to win in the ring. So who is really the driving force here? The breeder who wants to win, even at the cost of creating an unworkable structure, or the Judges who reward that type structure?
Look at the progression of both American and German show dogs over the decades and you can see what the judges reward has created a different look...
COMPARISONS OVER DECADES
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Re: GSD structures
[Re: Ann Henderson ]
#81120 - 08/03/2005 11:19 AM |
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Thankyou, I was trying to find a photo like your first link (http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/Ldogs/LindenhillHayabusa.htm) for my other post of what I consider "excessive" slope, but couldn't find a pic like that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
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Re: GSD structures
[Re: Mike J Schoonbrood ]
#81121 - 08/03/2005 11:40 AM |
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Wow, great pictorial. Interesting how IMO the line least changed is the working line. Appreciate all the effort in that description. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
Chris
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Re: GSD structures
[Re: Ann Henderson ]
#81122 - 08/03/2005 11:58 AM |
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In my opinion this is a pitiful development. But it's not only the GSD body which gets deformed. As a working breed I don't think this tapered body doesn't do any good to their performance. Look at the wolf and then at all dog breeds out there and you can see what man created. But apperently there are plenty people who like it.
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Re: GSD structures
[Re: Ann Henderson ]
#81123 - 08/03/2005 12:22 PM |
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The American breeder would be quick to point out that the back slope is excentuated in a "stacked" position.
Since it was my original quotation in your post, I will respond by saying that in another post, I did mention this.
The German breeders have gone after the same goal only in different way, creating a dog with the severe butt-tuck, a hunched back look, and long slope...
I've always thought this is what a 'roach' back was. Am I wrong?
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Re: GSD structures
[Re: Kristen Cabe ]
#81124 - 08/03/2005 01:58 PM |
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Hi Kristen,
Well, actually a true "roach" back is one in which the middle of the back is higher than the top of the withers...but almost anyone who is not a professional breeder will call the "hunched up" look that the butt-tuck creates as a "roach" or "banana" back.
Breeders will argue that the dog has a sloping topline, but when the slope starts dramatically from the middle of the back down, it looks like a hunch-back...
This is a sample I found on line that comes closest to a true "roach", where the middle of the back looks higher than the base of the neck. (Note the dog was judged VA several times over!)
Technically, his slope probably starts at the top of the withers, but that doesn't change the look...eh?
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/35021.html
Look at that dog's dam; still too much angulation for my taste, but I like the topline better! The dog inherited his back structure from his sire though...
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Re: GSD structures
[Re: Ann Henderson ]
#81125 - 08/03/2005 02:45 PM |
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Ann, thanks! You've given some excellent visuals (and I'm a very visual person).
Why would anyone want a dog with a curved spine anyway? It just doesn't look natural!
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Re: GSD structures
[Re: Kristen Cabe ]
#81126 - 08/03/2005 02:52 PM |
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The idea of a slight roach was based on an engineering concept for strength in architecture. Following along those lines of thinking, it was guessed that a slight roach would improve power transmission to the rear, resulting in more powerful stride and drive in gaiting. However, like with any idea, some people will take things to extremes.
Mike Russell
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Re: GSD structures
[Re: Ann Henderson ]
#81127 - 08/03/2005 02:58 PM |
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And considering that this is a mostly "working dog" forum, I would like to add this:
One of the frequent criticisms of the "working dog" by show enthusiasts, is that structure is ignored in total favor of working temperaments. But that needn't be so: just like showlines need to work hard at maintaining proper gsd temperments in their lines (which few do), the workingline breeders need to pay attention to proper gsd form. As a non breeder, I can only assume that neither of these endeavors are easy!
This photo was posted on-line as an example of a well structured working line dog (2004 North Central Regional Champion High SchH3, High in Trial 99-85-98 ...an Asko von der Lutter son).
I've never seen this dog in person, but I find his structure appealing. Of course it also helps he has my favorite color/pattern...
Oh, and have I ever mentioned I really like Bodo vom Lierberg....? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Re: GSD structures
[Re: Ann Henderson ]
#81128 - 08/03/2005 05:10 PM |
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That photo of the American speciality show dog shocked me a little - the hock joint of the right hind limb is almost, if not actually, touching the floor. The joint must be under extreme flexion to achieve that position. It looks abnormal to me. Is this considered acceptable/desirable? (Apologies in advance if I'm just being naive)
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