Greetings, I'm a devoted reader of this site and Ed's articles. I respect the opinions here greatly. With that said, I have yet to find available the hard evidence to refute the claims made by the BARF opponents. To be honest, this article (and all side articles linked from that page on the left) pretty much has me convinced that the BARF diet is indeed ill-researched.

http://secondchanceranch.org/training/raw_meat/index.html

My problem is, I don't agree with most of their training theory, and I agree with nearly everything I've read here. My problem is, I can't jump onboard the BARF train. Please tell me that there is current research out to refute these claims . . .

Heh, that's the problem with BARF. All claims are purely anecdotal. I don't know if there's solid research behind it yet, simply because no one has the money to do it. Most raw food companies seem to be small in comparison to dog food companies like Iams and Purina.

And of course, I don't see why research would make much difference. Given all the crap info there is on kibble alone out there, it would take a long time for me to believe anything anyone has said, scientist or no. Self-research is best for this in my opinion--do what works for you.

That said, I chose it simply because my spitz has done better on it. I've tried all sorts of premium food out there, and then just raw, and his coat (yes, it's always the coat isn't it?) does significantly better on the raw. Just one week on high-quality food (EVO, for the record, and yes, I didn't drop the supplements I use on raw, i.e. the fish oils and stuff) and it becomes somewhat duller. Still great and shiny, mind you, but it's like cotton on raw food. Compared to how it's easier for me...I just throw frozen chicken bones to them out in the backyard for breakfast...and that the dogs only want to go poop once a day...and that the poop is so easy to clean up...I just don't see WHY I shouldn't use it.

It's cheap too. I spend like 10 dollars a week on two dogs. 5 dollars on the chicken bones, extra for kibble and other meat once in a while and the supplements. Sweet deal.

I should also add, about the claims that raw bones can kill...I use whole chicken backs to feed to my puppy because she CHOKES ON KIBBLE. She literally inhales it. Raw at least forces her to eat slowly and naturally.

I also used raw on my cats, with similar results to my spitz. They are on Chicken Soup for Cats/similar kibble now, because it takes too damn long to make raw food for them (had to grind it up and crap), but the coat isn't flawless like it was on raw.

Just my 2 cents:
I was really pro-BARF and fed all of my dogs BARF for about a year. A couple months ago (when I got my GSD-now 4months old) I started her on BARF. She was fine for about a month then one day... she got an entritis. For those of you who dont know what that is (I didnt) It is either E coli Salmonella or Pavro(someone correct me if Im wrong here) After a HUGE vet bill and one very sick puppy, I switched to a premium dry dog food. IMHO BARF is not the way to go ------) unless you research the recipe your dog will be eating, get a vets approval and ALWAYS use very srtict handling methods. Even then there is no garuntee that something wont go wrong.
For example:
You do all of the above steps.
You put the food in a dish.
You dog isnt particularly hungry at the moment.
You wait 20.
Try to go pick up the dish.
The dog starts eating as soon as he thinks his food is being taken away.
BAM!
Salmonella.

To those that disagree...thats your choice. But show me REAL credible scientific research that has been done, and proves that BARF is safe for dogs to eat without the risk of salmonella, E coli...ect. If you can find that for me great!...I'll send them my vet bill.

First of all, there is NEVER a guarantee something won't go wrong no matter what you feed your dog.

Tamara,

You say you have a huge vet bill and it was either Salmonella, E Coli or Parvo? You don't know?

If it was Parvo, this is a virus that has nothing to do with what you feed your dog and is spread from infected fecal matter of dogs carrying the disease. You can also carry it on your shoes, clothing etc.. this is a life threatening disease for puppies and debilitated dogs.

Enteritis is merely a generic term for an inflamed intestinal tract... and can be caused by a wide variety of things.

I would probably have asked the vet EXACTLY what was wrong with my dog if I had a huge vet bill and no specific diagnosis.

So, is your description of how a dog gets salmonella scientific?? I think not! I don't need anyone to tell me what dogs can eat without getting ill, I see it every time they eat horse poop, raid the litterbox or eat a squished frog or dead bird they find....

Do a little research on how the canine digestive system works and you will see that what would kill us, doesn't phase a dog!

To each his own, feed your dogs how it makes you feel comfortable but don't spout things like this here and expect to go unchallenged!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Again , let me emphasize that everyone has to make the choice that they feel comfortable with in feeding and caring for their own dogs. I would never advise someone to go into any change in their dogs nutritional needs without doing their own research. (as the original poster is doing)

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 Quote:

Just my 2 cents: she got an entritis. For those of you who dont know what that is (I didnt) It is either E coli Salmonella or Pavro (someone correct me if Im wrong here)

Yes, gastroenteritis can be caused by e.coli or Parvo, and it has been traced to poultry meal in commercial foods as well as to raw poultry in BARF diets. Here's some info about canine gastroenteritis in general: http://www.thedogplace.com/library/articles167.htm

First of all, there is NEVER a guarantee something won't go wrong no matter what you feed your dog.

You say you have a huge vet bill and it was either Salmonella, E Coli or Parvo? You don't know?


T'was ecoli
had Blood Testing Adn was on I.V for 3 days as well as a plasma injection to help with her growth. Cage rest for 5 days.

If it was Parvo, this is a virus that has nothing to do with what you feed your dog and is spread from infected fecal matter of dogs carrying the disease. You can also carry it on your shoes, clothing etc.. this is a life threatening disease for puppies and debilitated dogs.



That is Exactly what Parvo is! Luckily for us the suspiscion of Parvo was soon gone after the lab results(blood testing) came in.

Enteritis is merely a generic term for an inflamed intestinal tract... and can be caused by a wide variety of things.


Yes a wide variety of things...PARVO E-COLI SALMONELLA mainly.

I would probably have asked the vet EXACTLY what was wrong with my dog if I had a huge vet bill and no specific diagnosis.


:sigh: It was E- Coli she had an entristis...would you like me to go onto how they treated her?

So, is your description of how a dog gets salmonella scientific?? I think not! I don't need anyone to tell me what dogs can eat without getting ill, I see it every time they eat horse poop, raid the litterbox or eat a squished frog or dead bird they find....

I should hope that didnt come across as sceintific! That was an example of how a dog CAN get E-Coli from eating BARF..I am not a scientist, just a disabled chick <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
The other things you mentioned(cat poopy horse dung dead frogs, birds ect.) It is impossible to stiop a dog from doing those naughty things...but easily preventable. I should hope a dog owner would try his damndest to make sure his dog dosent eat dead animals!!



Do a little research on how the canine digestive system works and you will see that what would kill us, doesn't phase a dog!


Did it ...I researched alot! I am aware dogs are not humans <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

To each his own, feed your dogs how it makes you feel comfortable but don't spout things like this here and expect to go unchallenged!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

ditto <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

My dogs eat dead animals every day, remember I am a raw feeder. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I wouldn't dream of preventing them from doing that....

I guess the difference between you and I is I know exactly what my dogs are eating... when you feed kibble, you have NO idea...

Here's an interesting article Food Pets Die For

FYI, there is a handy feature on this webboard that allows you to quote others in a much easier to read format. You may want to learn how to use it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

QUOTE: I should hope a dog owner would try his damndest to make sure his dog dosent eat dead animals!! END Actually, that's exactly what most of us DO feed our dogs, whether it's in cans or bags or butcher paper...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

QUOTE: Enteritis is merely a generic term for an inflamed intestinal tract... and can be caused by a wide variety of things. END Yes, it can be cause by A WIDE VARIETY OF THINGS. Check out the URL I posted.

And again, e.coli has been traced to poultry meal in commercial foods as well as to raw poultry in BARF. E.coli, which is one of many possible causes of gastroenteritis (as Cindy said) can be picked up a hundred different ways.

Aaron, I feed my dog a raw diet. I love the way my pup looks on it; bright eyes, healthy coat, healthy ears, skin etc. There is no way to say if this diet is right or wrong...you have to decide for your self. But I can tell you why I feed the raw diet.
I am a CVT (certified veterinary technician) so I have spent a lot of my time studying and dealing with the canine GI. The canine GI is shorter than our proportionally. This is biologically sensible because meat and meat product (protein and fat) is quicker to digest than plant material, which is basically sugar or carbohydrates and fiber. The canine stomach acidity (HCL) is also higher than ours or any other omnivore / herbivore. This benefits the animal in two ways.. 1 meats need a higher acidity to be broken down properly and digested and 2 the higher acidity allows dogs to consumer potentially harmful bacteria, protozoa, parasites ect. These organism can generally not survive such high acidity. Now saying this, some inevitably pass thou, but a healthy dog has other mechanism to fight them. Also the enzymes required to break down carbs (which are the primary source of energy in commercial dog food) include amylase, lactase, maltase, sucrase, and disaccharidase. Dog and cats have deficiencies of the enzymes, only due to the fact that these carbs are not a part of the animals intended diet. With that said, some carbs in commercial food is easily digested, however studies have shown that wild canines consume less than 30% carbs and cats less than 5%. Commercial foods range from 30 - 70%. Carbs cause the acidity to lower in the stomach and can also cause maldigestion )because they lack the proper enzymes) and obesity (because it is converted into glucose which is stored as adipose).
Now before I started the raw diet I asked many veterinarians about what they thought of the raw diet...and many of them where disapproving. Thou I did find out from one newly out of school vet that in veterinary school animal nutrition class was taught by telling them to trust what dog food companies say a dog needs because they have done the research. Also many of them speculated raw bones puncturing intestines...but when asked how often they have seen this....none of the vets I asked (and this was at a University Hospital) have ever had a case.
Now some research has been done on this as I was told by my vet (I need to find the paper), but it basically said that no harm nor good comes out of feeding a raw diet. However she did say that all of her clients on raw look great.
I hope this helps with your research a little bit. The raw diet is definitely more appropriate biologically (there are many more reasons but this is getting to long). The raw diet does take time to prepare and research and if you don't want to or have the time to I see nothing wrong with feeding an all natural kibble. Cindy and Connie are right, every diet comes with dangers. Typically thou salmonella and E coli problems only happen when the animals immune system is compramised. Parvo, as said before, has nothing to do with the raw diet and more to due with no vaccinations, infected animal contact or dirty conditions.
I think of feeding dogs commercial dog food like feeing yourself Ramen (which is 90% of my diet <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />, you can survive but in truth your not giving your body what it truly needs.