I have a friend/fellow handler - has a 2 1/2 to 3 yr old narcotic detection Lab. Dog has been rock solid on his scratches and by that I mean - the dog would keep scratching until reward was located or found. Recently now, the dog is watching the handler, doing a 1/2 a_ _ scratch and if the handler take s a step back - the dog will quit and step back with him.

I have suggested of doing some basic fix-it stuff. Scratch drills w/ the primary reward system and a lot of them before and after each training session.

Any other thoughts/suggestions.

Mark,
It may be that your friends dog has seen him give the reward once too often. Try rewarding the dog for your friend while the dog is aggressively scratching and can see him at the same time. Of course you dont want the dog to see you give the reward either.

Hello again!!
This is the type of problem I was speaking about in the other thread. Of course it could be caused by other things too, but I would watch what the handler is doing. It sounds like the dog is expecting something from the handler, praise, confirmation or reward and is convinced that if the handler moves away, the dog figures either he is wrong or simply won't get his reward. Will the dog respond if the handler is at a distance when the aid is found. Example: The handler is 10-15 feet away when the dog hits an odor. Will he alert? And if so, does the handler immediately move to his side?

Originally posted by Mark Addison:
I have a friend/fellow handler - has a 2 1/2 to 3 yr old narcotic detection Lab. Dog has been rock solid on his scratches and by that I mean - the dog would keep scratching until reward was located or found. Recently now, the dog is watching the handler, doing a 1/2 a_ _ scratch and if the handler take s a step back - the dog will quit and step back with him.

I have suggested of doing some basic fix-it stuff. Scratch drills w/ the primary reward system and a lot of them before and after each training session.

Any other thoughts/suggestions. This problem can be averted through foundational training using primary rewards and returning to that system until the dog is back on track. Then a process of extinguishing handler influence should begin to prevent its return.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Addison:
I have a friend/fellow handler - has a 2 1/2 to 3 yr old narcotic detection Lab. Dog has been rock solid on his scratches and by that I mean - the dog would keep scratching until reward was located or found. Recently now, the dog is watching the handler, doing a 1/2 a_ _ scratch and if the handler take s a step back - the dog will quit and step back with him.

I have suggested of doing some basic fix-it stuff. Scratch drills w/ the primary reward system and a lot of them before and after each training session.

Any other thoughts/suggestions.

*************************
An excellent way to provide a primary reward is by using "drug boards". These are 4'x8' sheets of plywood. Mark out a "grid" on the boards and drill about a 2 inch hole every square foot. Behind each hole mount a shelf or a box. Make about 3 of these boards and have them standing up so they form a wall that is 4' high and 24' long. Have an assistant behind the boards put the hide behind one of the holes. Now detail the entire boards checking each hole. When the dog locates the correct hole and gives his "alert" (whether aggressive or passive) the assistant can feed the reward (pvc pipe, rubber hose, round jute tug, etc...) through the hole exactly at the location of the drug. Dog gets the reward and the handler is not even in the picture. Works great for getting the dog to focus back at the source of the odor and to ignore the handler. Using this system, you can also place other "distractors" (cat/dog food, ash trays, people food, even small animals...) behind the holes to make sure the dog ignores everything but the trained odor.
These boards are excellent ways to get back to basics every so often.
John

Alcox,
Deja Vu, eh? Obviously handler error has caused this problem if the dog was working fine before. Sheldahl's suggestion is solid in that foundational training is in order so that the dog will proof. One good reason why the handler should rarely know where the dope is hidden. Its too easy to key the dog.

JP,
Drug boards...thats a new one to me. Sounds like fun but a pain to build,or store.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Howard Knauf:


JP,
Drug boards...thats a new one to me. Sounds like fun but a pain to build,or store.

***********************
Howard,
They are a bit of a pain to build and store, but well worth it! If the boards are used during the initial training of the dog you will not have the problem of the dog looking for the handler for the reward. They can build up a scratch like you wouldnt believe and if your dog is passive, you can get the dog to sit and STARE at the source of the odor. Pretty amazing to watch.
Best part is the fact that the handler has nothing to do with the reward. The assistant behind the boards does all the work. If the dogs scratch is weak, he feeds the toy into the hole and as the dog starts to go for it, pulls it back in. When the proper scratch is there (or the passive dog is sitting and staring at the hole), only then does he get the reward.
Its also a great way to get the dog to follow your hand while detailing. Each hole has to be checked before going on to the next. Makes training in a "W" pattern easy to do. The boards can be utilized in any configuration you want.
Ours were built by the local carpenters union. They did a heck of a job on it. They can take up some space so a dedicated area is a must.
If you ever get a chance to try them, I know you'll like it.
John

John,
Think I'll build one section and give it a shot before going whole hog. Thanks

In reference to those "drug boards"...I used a series of three of them from day one on training my drug dog to equate odor to the toy. We had one person stand on the back side of the wall with a rope attached to a toy that was on the front side. We fed the rope through the hole and about 12" from the on leash dog. The hole that the rope was through had a kilo of marijuana in the space. When the dogs were released they chased after the toy directly through the hole where on the other side was the kilo. They were then rewarded. They had it down within a couple of days...no problem. They had no idea that someone else was on the other side.

As he progressed I used them to work on detail work (W-pattern) and work on the toy coming from the source. They work great for conflict training as well (i.e. I put plastic bags in one, food in another, etc.) If you have mutliple walls, you can build a simulated room etc. You can have high, medium, or low finds. They work really awesome!

My dog and I have only been working together for about 6 months and I think I am going to put him back on the walls again for a bit. They just help work on some basic skills.

They are big and cumbersome but if you have a place to store them and train then you are set. They may be a little difficult to build but not to hard for a local high school wood shop to be able to build them. I can send pictures if someone needs them.

We also called them 'Pigeon Holes' <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

kielklan@hotmail.com

Just a note from my original inquiry.

The yellow lab is back on track - gone back to primary rewards, non-handler rewards and scratch drills.

Thanks