Mongrels barely eat. They are mostly skin and bones. They usually have skin problems, fleas and ticks. They walk around trash, other dogs, other animals, and pay little or no attention to these distractions. The majority don't get run over by cars. They live in a dog pack, know their boundaries, and respect them to the death...only at night.

Universally they know five commands: "go lie down", "bite it", "come here", "find it" and "stay home/don't follow me".

They don't get much praise; certainly not much food; God forbid prey rewards like playing tug. No choke collars; no prong collars; e-collars...you guessed right...none of those either. How much time do the owners spend "training" per day? Formally...zero minutes.

*Recalls are lightning fast, but they don't "finish" neatly.
*Bites are of the target and re-target variety. They don't re-target unless they're about to be hit with something. Their bite was not "developed", they never saw a sleeve, let alone a suit. Chances are they were agitated somehow tough.
*Go lie down is what they do in response to a pointed index finger and a certain voice emphasis.
*Find it means "seek me out an armadillo, rabbit, deer, iguana, wild pig...whatever, so I can kill it." They learn this from pack members.
*Stay home is mostly "rock enforced". "If you follow me, I'll throw a rock near you."

As a bonus, these third world dogs will do a rather decent bark and hold (also pack learned) if they are sent to bite something that will hurt them...or on their own within their premises.

It's not the flashiest obedience, nor the most precise "choreography", nor the fastest, hardest, "most...est" entry, nor the calmest, firmest grip...but they work for their owners.

Many people (myself included) consider timing ESSENTIAL for training a dog...because we think dogs "reinforce" to what they are doing NOW. But what is the immediate reinforcer for mongrel dogs? Heck...what's the reinforcer period?

Most people that post to this board have never walked where third world mongrels live...so perhaps they would not be able to offer more than speculation. There are a few people that HAVE been there, though. The universal 5 "mongrel" commands, are undisputable. Some respond faster, neater, but the vast, VAST, majority respond.

How does classical "operant conditioning theory" work in this scenario?

When I read ad nauseum about the prey/defense, adult/puppy argument...I frankly keep quiet about most points...because there is too much that I don't know; too many questions I have asked, to which people have answered, somewhat irritated, "...because. Just because".

I guess you are not talking about stray dogs, although most of them know about 'go home' or 'don't follow me'.

Gipsy dogs are like you mentioned. Don't know about biting part though. Flight is always better option when you are 'out there' alone.
They are pretty much on their own and yet they always chose to stay around people.
All of 'commands' you mentioned are learned by those dogs through some kind of compulsion.

"The universal 5 "mongrel" commands, are undisputable."

Well, I've lived a large percentage of my life in third world countries on three different continents and I don't see that "mongreal commands" were either universal or undisputable ( or even used, for that matter ).
Not meaning to argure with you, just my experiences

I have handled 2 pitmixes that had been handled as you describe - except two things. They were both 20+ pounds over weight. The one that was "trained to bite" had been trained to bite on ace bandages. (Yikes) Both were dog aggressive to a degree (probably breed-related) and both responded wonderfully to training/retraining - possibly breed-related as well.

There are more dogs stray and in these types of homes than we would ever want to imagine. The ironic part is the owners I've met that fall into this category "love" their dogs (thus the overweight) and think they are really good to the dog.

Will,

dumbest and most neglected mutt from person that really don't like or cares about his dog will know about 'place' as in 'go where i won't hit you. Or 'go home' as in 'go away and i won't hit you'.

As i said those dogs are not bitting dogs. Too much self preservation instinct.

And i would not call them 'commands' but it is true that there is interasting phenomen there.

At least for me... and something to talk about here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Will,

 Quote:

"The universal 5 "mongrel" commands, are undisputable."

Well, I've lived a large percentage of my life in third world countries on three different continents and I don't see that "mongreal commands" were either universal or undisputable ( or even used, for that matter ).
Not meaning to argure with you, just my experiences

Yup...no argument...just friendly adult debate. Also, how could I argue with the one that has said, "My house is open to you..." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Regarding your points: they are not really commands, but they sure are cues, like a whistle for the recall, a "hoop!" for find it, a kind of sneezing sound for "lie down", a "squeaky" kissing sound for "go bite and/or bark...or whatever you can".

I know you've been around one or two places... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The perspective an American soldier is able to get of the details of a culture is always different than the culture's reality. I think from experience these behaviors are universal, although they are not present in EVERY dog. They are prevalent enough to make me want to think more in depth about this topic. It's clear to me that there´s an enormous amount I don't know.


Anne,

 Quote:

I have handled 2 pitmixes that had been handled as you describe -

The mongrels I describe don't like to be touched, let alone handled! They have never had a leash on - EVER. Food gets tossed to them from the table at most once per day. (This is interesting!)

Ivan,

 Quote:

Flight is always better option when you are 'out there' alone.

I'm not referring to when the dogs are beyond their premises, or alone. I mean when the pack is with their owner, or when they're at home.

 Quote:

All of 'commands' you mentioned are learned by those dogs through some kind of compulsion.

I agree with this for "go home" and for "lie down", but not for the recall, or for the hunting cues, or for the "go bite" cues.

 Quote:

As i said those dogs are not bitting dogs. Too much self preservation instinct.

This last quote is also quite interesting...how do well trained "traditional" working dogs act outside of their territory, when they are by themselves, in open country, WITHOUT the proximity of their handlers? They are much more primordial, and most intelligent ones would run away from a fight, unless there's a resource guarding issue. Definite self-preservation.

The mongrels aren't biting machines, but a pack of them will get an intruder's blood pumping fast in no time...right?


All of this very interesting to me because:

1) I see no evident immediacy between an "operant" and its reinforcement.

2) Reinforcement for the most part is not treats and games. The only circumstances these dogs can "sort of" count on is a safe place to sleep, and some free food AT THE END OF THE DAY.


So...would anyone on this board like to chime in regarding:

1)How mongrels all over the world learn these sets of behaviors and perform them (with a passing grade) in the midst of incredible distraction?

2)What is/are the primary reinforcer(s) (or punishments)?

I can guess that what you are dealing with is a random breeding that only the "street smart" dogs are going to survive. A dog that does not go along with the owners wishes is not likely to get fed, but shot. When you look at how we breed dogs there is too much molly coddling due to the dogs "worth" in cash. This is not so in the places you are talking about. The "worth" is the dogs function or lack of. We breed for money, period. There are exceptions but the numbers are too small to matter. There breeding happens. if the pups go along with the program (read go along with the pack) then they most likely live. People in these countrys have no mercy, and the dogs recognize this and go along or they don't and are a delicious meal. Here fluffy stays in resorts, gets to live and even breed no matter how useless this dog is. If they don't listen we pay doggy psychiatrists to fix the fact that we are essentially weak and the dog knows it and ignores us.

I believe it all has to do with survival.The dog does what he has to do to survive.His instincts tell him he has a better chance of survival in a pack environment and the human provides some basic needs like food although scarcely,shelter , and some form of social interaction.
The commands are universal because they are always given with similar body gestures which the dog picks up on naturally.The dog may obey the commands because he believes it is beneficial to the survival of the pack.I bet you wont see the human out doing an ob demo with that kind of dog.My point being a command is only given when it is NEEDED and the dog instinctively understands that.
Its just a natural form of obedience.We all could benefit by examining the why and wherefore of this behavior.Its like caveman dog training I guess.Uncomplicated by man's analytical mind.

mongrel dog response to cues you mentioned (hunting, recall) would probably have to do with the fact that dogs are opportunists. Come to a cue = "there might be food", responding to a cue to find game = "there might be leftovers". Dogs hang around human habitation because there is more a chance to scavenge. Other cues the dog responds to would be in the end of self preservation to scavenge another day.

I also forgot to add "random reinforcement."