I just joined a Schutzhund club in my area and had a quick question about the training methods implemented - specifically one particular thing that I don't know what to think about yet.... and was hoping to get some other thoughts, explanations, etc..

My dog is very interested in other dogs, and when back tied he is very focused on them instead of the object the helper is using to stimulate him ( a long leather piece with a string attached to it ). In the last two sessions we have tried to get him to focus on the toy instead of the other dogs. Tonight, the helper smacked him in the rear with it to get his attention - where the dog yelped. This didn't do the trick, but instead stressed the dog out so that he was circling my legs. He still wasn't interested in the toy ( or the helper ) - but at this point he wasn't interested in the other dogs either. So the helper tagged him again with the toy ( another yelp ) - with the same effect. They left it alone at that point and gave him the toy and I put him up.

Of course, I was a little disturbed by this, but with my lack of knowledge - I don't know what to think. I did raise the question at the end of the day about the usefulness of it - and if it was productive with a 10mo old dog - and I got the response that the dog is looking to me for protection and needs to be paying attention to the helper with the toy - etc...

Anyone care to elaborate on this? Was the guy correct in doing this?

I'm brand new to Sch but In My uninformed opinion, popping a puppy on the butt to focus on the helper or toy or whatever is probably not the most effective way to train. This sounds like a basic OB issue to me. Striking a puppy is never a good idea. I'd go back to distraction proofing.

Dennis, he was talking about aggitation work with other dogs like a puppy line, not OB buddy! I would wonder how much drive the dog has, as well as how much interest he has in the work if he ignores a guy running around with a prey object.

Then again how close were the other dogs? This method may not work with this particular dog. How hard did the decoy pop him? What did the training director of your club suggest?

If your dog is easily distracted from the decoy when he is by himself, that is a problem you need to find out, and then see if the dog has what it takes. Not all of them do.

I would have to have seen his reaction to the decoy to even have a chance to tell you how much damage occured. From what you have said I would wonder about the decoy and the dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

If it were me, no helper is going to pop my puppy until she has all her adult teeth and alot closer to adult maturity. So many other things could of been involved here. Dog might have been sick or overfed. It will be a question I'll bring up at the club. I only seen a dog get pop to get it off the sleeve and on to the helper's hidden sleeve, but that dog was close to two years if not older.

I'm also new to Schutzhund with just about three yrs of studying and a (awesome <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> 20 month old dog. With just starting, and a 10 month old pup, I think it's way to much defence, to early. Although It may have a good purpose, I'm also not a fan of tying out a group of dogs. To many different personalities. Your pup needs to learn how to enjoy Schutzhund with prey work.

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Then again how close were the other dogs? This method may not work with this particular dog.

The other dogs were within 15ft of my dog ( 3 other dogs ). He gets quite animated when other dogs are around - so I'm guessing they were hoping to feed off of this energy and transfer it to the toy.

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How hard did the decoy pop him?

It wasn't like knock the dog down hard, but there was definitely a 'pop' kindof like popping a towel on somebody's arse - not gently - but not over the top leave a mark for a week hard. Needless to say, the dog yelped.

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What did the training director of your club suggest?

He said that it was a problem we needed to solve, but two of the other dogs went through the same thing ( failure to bark and get excited over the toy ) - so he was optimistic to say the least.

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If your dog is easily distracted from the decoy when he is by himself, that is a problem you need to find out, and then see if the dog has what it takes.

We haven't had him back tied without at least one other dog nearby. Which, clearly is the main issue - since he is so very focused on other dogs ( barking, etc ). When it is just me and the dog at home - he is pretty much nuts when it comes to chasing things, barking for toys, tug of war, etc... So, I suspect since this is all new to him ( other dogs, environment, etc ) - he isn't quite as focused...

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I would have to have seen his reaction to the decoy to even have a chance to tell you how much damage occured. From what you have said I would wonder about the decoy and the dog.

So, I guess what I am hearing is that in general it isn't good to pop the dog at this age ( or any age for that matter? ).

When I return on Wednesday, should I suggest something - if so, what would you suggest? The obvious solution sounds like to me that we need to remove the other dogs from the area ( out of sight ) and then work on him so that we don't have to get his attention away from the distractions - at which point we can add in the distractions later once he knows what is expected of him. Just a guess.

I can give you this advice. The puppy line we always did when they were really young. It was a good way to get all the little buggers out and get them excited. They only got one bite, but lots of misses. Older pups got the bites first and then run off the field, Then the babies last. They always got really excited and got one bite which left them really wanting more. They were 6 mos or less. 10 months doing a puppy line is LAZY decoy work. 10 months they have life experience which a decoy needs to work them as individuals so they can get to know the dog, and work them appropriatly. I guess everyone was right a few weeks ago when they where all nerved out by decoys. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> I cannot believe that after the first pop was a disaster, that he did it again. Get someone else in the club to decoy your dog, this one hasn't a clue. A pop in the but when they are not looking isn't really defence per se, but still the second one should not have happened. WOW! that just sucks.

Jeff,

Thanks for the input. I'll make sure I'm clear with the decoy that he is to try and come up with positive ways to encourage the dog in this scenario.

Today, I took the dog in the back yard ( where we always play ), and back tied him. I had a towel and a stick ( the stick being his favorite ). I ran back and forth laterally in front of him with the towel - and he was very interested ( but not crazy ), occasionally lunging, barking, etc... I would let him get the towel when he barked, tug for a couple of seconds and would let him have it. He would usually drop it once I quit tugging, at which point I would try to steal it.... he, from what I understand, correctly tried to prevent me from getting it.

I then did the same thing with his stick.... his reaction was 100X more animated and he was barking/lunging like crazy. I then threw it, let him off the leash and off he went like a madman.

From this, I would tend to think that his drive is there - he just isn't dealing as well with the distractions in an new environment - which he certainly hasn't been exposed to previously - at least trying to work the dog in prey with other dogs around.

From this little sample of information, do you agree with my conclusion? Do you think that we should first remove distractions - and then add them in once he understands what is going on and he is more comfortable with the situation?

I'm trying to take back some specific ideas so I can suggest them to the group when dealing with my dog - rather than go back and state they are wrong and need to do something else.... would rather come armed with some ideas -I suspect it will go over better and would be more constructive in general.

Charles,

A 10 mo old PUP, that has not "woken up" after two sessions in a line up is no big deal. If your dog has prey drive...he will wake up...he's just taking in his surroundings. When he becomes less sensitive to that, he'll focus on playing the decoy.

The other dogs your training instructor uses as examples did not necessarily respond to the pops on the rump, could be those dogs just "caught on" to the game. Pops like that...to get a dog's attention...for a dog like yours are not productive. Patience is FAR more productive.

A line up is good. The decoy should put your dog in between two good dogs, and move from one end to the other, spending a few seconds with your dog, until your dog begins to want the tug. Five or six POSITIVE sessions should do it. How your decoy moves the tug is important; when he jostles it, when he pulls it away (a little or a lot); when he super activates it. It's also very important for you to praise at the correct moments, and to raise your criteria for praise according to a view of what you want from your dog.

This "taking" behavior can be shaped in the midst of distraction. A good first day progress will be for the dog to look at tug; second day, smell it; third day, take a step to chase it; fourth day, try to take it for a millisecond; fifth day, hold it for a millisecond, and so on. I exaggerated...but not much!

Your decoy...and instructor...should be a bit more patient.

Good biting in a dog is like building a wall. Good foundations FIRST, and then a brick at a time.