As I have admitted before, I tend to expect too much from my pups, and I am working on allowing them to be puppies. Is 5 months old too young in your opinions and experience to use a prong collar?
I felt I had to resort to one last night when my S.B. refused to come during our training session. I am 100% certain he knows the command. It was one of the first I taught him at 10 weeks old.
So, I put the prong collar on him in the front yard and called him "Angus Come!" and he continued to sniff around and ignore me, without even flicking an ear in my direction to let me know he heard my loud voice. So I repeated the command and gave him a semi-hard correction with a quick release and he ran straight to me. He gave a small yelp, but that was it. I praised him greatly and he acted happy.
I should add that this is a dog who takes correction very hard. He will go to his bed and stare and kind of bark/talk at me until I stare him down. The he averts his eyes and puts his head on the ground with a huff.
Seeing what you serious trainers accomplish is REALLY making me question my methods, and shake my confidence- and I want to learn from better and more experienced trainers.
Thanks in Advance
Stacy O.

There is a difference between forcing and shaping a proper behavior. 5 months is a pain in the butt age for all owners, the little weasels are coming of age, starting to challenge in different ways, and generally annoying to be around. I like my dogs to stare at me, so using social pressure like staring them down isn't an option for me. The biggest problem in general is that they are too immature mentally to handle things. This is why behavior shaping methods like marker training are valuable tools. I find that overtly being dominant isn't the way to go either. My dogs can act as stupid as they want at that age, and try to ignore me. I return the favor by ignoreing them at feeding time. This is a passive way of showing them who is in charge. As a matter of fact, my puppy GSD Turk is experiencing this fact right now, and is out in his kennel telling the world what a S.O.B. I am. Tommorow, he will be happy to do what I ask, because he is sure he is starving to death right now. No staring, No pinch, No big deal for me! There is a time and place for everything, and this time in their life, for me is too young for corrections. It's not like they don't figure it out, and seeing that all that is good comes from you is a good relationship builder.

Jeff,
WOW! Thank you for replying. I honestly had no idea that dogs could rationalize that far ahead, as far as dinner time- and know WHY they are not being fed.

And another thing you pointed out is that I am probably confusing the everliving crap out of this poor pup! I teach him to watch me by using little pieces of hot dog in my mouth. Then I stare him down at other times. I am stupid.
I thought I was a pretty decent trainer. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I appreciate you taking the time to explain my self-defeating methods!

And yes, 5 months old is a difficult age. I think my favorite age is 5 years old. Thanks again Jeff for the reply!!
Thankfully,
Stacy O.

I don't think the puppy is rationalizing why he isn't being fed. The plain and simple fact of the matter is that he will straighten up the next day because he (probably) is used to being trained initially with treats, and will be really eager to get those treats because he's hungry! LoL

Kristen,
Thanks for explaining LOL...So I don't need to feel like I'm being cruel by making him skip a meal for ignoring me?
Just make it up in hot dogs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Would you recommend skipping breakfast or dinner? He's very big so I feed him twice a day to hopefully avoid mesenteric torsion. Our training sessions are mainly at night (little reminders throughout the day), but he seems to be hungriest in the morning.

Skipping a meal is not a punishment for disobedience. Dogs live in the "now" and they learn things by the immediate actions consistently following their behaviors. Dogs don't rationalize or "problem solve" so they have no idea why they are not getting fed.
Skipping a meal is only a way to raise motivation for the next training session and works well when you are teaching a new behavior. If the dog already know the behavior, then it's a matter of proofing that behavior under distractions, and introducing corrrections. If your dog already knows a behavior, then skipping a meal will increase obedience temporarily until he is no longer "starving" or more distractions come. There is nothing new learned and it won't help you avoid giving corrections- what you want to do is proof.
Set up situations to test his training. If he disobeys, then immediatly correct him to do the right behavior and immediatly praise when he does it.
The sad faces could just be a part of his development phase or he may be extra sensitive under the new stress of proofing and new distractions. He could be also sensing your stress from him not behaving and any accidental overly-dominant may affect him more. I would just ignore the sensitive behavior to keep it from becoming worse and continue training and proofing. It's like they go back and forth from being sensitive to rebellious during his age.

Alot of exercise will also help tire him out and help him get rid of all his puppy energy. Don't forget to spend time bonding and take a break from training, like walks in areas where you know he is comfortable and are familiar. Hope this answers your questions!

Unbelievable! That makes complete sense... Thanks for taking the time to explain all of that to someone who "thought" she was a trainer LOL
I was wondering if you have any good ways to boost his confidence, as he's spooky outside at night all of a sudden, he chooses flight over fight and THAT is something I am NOT used to after having pit bulls for so many years. He literally hides behind me. What I've been doing when he does this is bring a favorite toy outside to distract him from the boogeyman, or whatever he seems to be afraid of in the dark, and it seems to be helping, but I don't know if this is a sign for a potential "fear biter" (If he were a pit bull behaving like this I would be highly concerned!) Is this what is meant when I see "weak nerves" in posts? Please help!!!
Thanka (again!) in Advance
Stacy O.

Part of that is being a puppy and their development phases that cuase fear and insecurity, or part could be weak nerves (but someone would need to know more details about his behavior.) Part could be lack of socialization. Make sure to expose him to as many situations as possible so they become nuetral to him. Don't respond to his fearful behavior, as this could be nurturing to it and create a real habit of this reaction. Ignore it and continue past the distraction. As the pack leader, sometimes if you act confident then he will feel that and gain confidence also.
Here's a link about drives, nerves, and such (it explains weak nerves and will help you figure out if he has weak nerves.)
http://www.leerburg.com/drives2.htm
Try searching for "weak nerves" on the forum too. You'll get lots of results.

Thank you, i'll check it out!

Quote:Skipping a meal is not a punishment for disobedience. Dogs live in the "now" and they learn things by the immediate actions consistently following their behaviors. Dogs don't rationalize or "problem solve" so they have no idea why they are not getting fed.

Look the point I was trying to make was at 5 months with an insecure dog you don't need a pinch collar. Also, I was not trying to use it as punishment. If you go back and look she was using eye contact to stare down her dog. Using social pressure to bully your dog shows me that you don't understand what you are doing quite yet. Dogs do understand that you are the one that brings them their food. Not feeding them when they are being buttheads is not punishment, but a passive form of dominence.