Hello all,
i have a couple of questions/concerns regarding an all natural diet; i found Ed Frawley's articles on the all natural diet very interesting and I have decided to give it a try; my first question goes to the use of whole raw chicken quaters as mr. Frawley proposes; is there any risk on the dog swallowing or splinting any of the long bones on the drumstick or the thigh? shouldn't this be a concern as far as the possibility of this happening and producing a tear on the dog's esophagus?
my second question is, does anyone know whether switching to an all natural diet can alleviate the problems posed by panoosteitis in growing german shepherds? what are your thoughts on treating pano? do you think diet can influence the physiology of the joint? i know some fatty acids have antiinflammatory properties so a natural diet might be helpful...
thanks for any comments/suggetions,

Rita.

Rita,
Ever since finding chicken quarters at WalMart for 43 cents/pound, we've been feeding them to our GSD that is on a raw/natural diet for EPI. He crushes & swallows the bones with no trouble. The bones are not a problem as long as they're not cooked.
I'm not certain about a raw diet helping with Pano. Some I spoken with beleive it does help, I haven't been feeding raw long enough to know first hand.

I don't know about a raw diet alone helping pano, except for the fact that the protien ratio might be better than in alot of the kibble foods, even the large breed ones, and that initself will keep a dogs growth at a more normal rate than an excellerated rate that kibble can pruduce; which can contribute to the onset of pano. I am sure that there are other factors than just excellerated growth that can cause pano, but I know that fast growth is a contributor to the problem. It seems also to be seen more in males than females. As far as feeding chicken leg quarters...I feed them all the time with no problems & my dog is a gulper. She maybe takes a couple of chews & gone. She has had no ill effects from eating chicken quarters in this way. I also feed chicken & turkey necks, pork & lamb neck bones as well as organ meat, ground beef, pork, & lamb, turkey and mackeral & sardines and veggie pulp. I also occassionally feed tripe. I now also feed the healthy kitchen with my dogs breakfast meal. (a new line of dehydrated raw food that Ed carries) With regard to a raw diet, read all that you can find before starting your dog on this diet. Variety is an important factor in the diet along with some supplimentation of probiotics & enzymes especially in the beginning. Ed has a sample of a weekly meal plan that is a good guide along with a couple of books that he sells on the BARF diet. It is very important to feed properly on a raw diet or you will be doing more harm than good for you dog. Good luck.

Thank you both for your very valuable help; i found those chicken quaters at walmart but i was a little hesitant to buy them before getting some feedback from the site; i notice they sell 10 lb bags with already preenhanced flavor and some maltodextrin (i guess as a presevative); is this what you guys feed your dogs?
i will try the diet; i will supplement it with vitamin E and fish oils; do you think this would be sufficient or should i complement with other ingredients?
how do you feed the vegetables and what kind?
thanks so much!
Rita

I also feed chicken quarters on a regular basis. One thing you can do in the beginning, watch the way your dog eats them. If he gulps or tries to just chew once or twice and then swallow the whole thing, which is what my dog tried to do, you can hold the quarter and have him actually rip it apart. After doing this for a while, my dog learned to chew a few more times, or hold it down with his feet and rip it apart.
You will be amazed at how much they like this diet!! Instead of food being there for 30 minutes, it will be gone in a minute or two, depending on how hard they have to work at it.
The waste (poop) will be alot less also!

Good luck! you wont regret it!

Thank you Mike,
i agree, i've been noticing for a while how much the dogs enjoy raw food; i occasionally give them big hocks or cow joints, which they love, on top of their regular kibble diet; their breath doesn't stink, and the bones keem them busy for a while <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
i'm comfortable getting those quarters now; the bags at walmart seem to have been pretreated with flavor enhancers and preservatives; could that pose an allergy problem?
thank you!
Rita

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i'm comfortable getting those quarters now; the bags at walmart seem to have been pretreated with flavor enhancers and preservatives; could that pose an allergy problem?
thank you!Rita

I guess they could, but we've been feeding them to our GSD who has Exocrine Pancreatic Insuffiency, along with some food allergies, and he hasn't had any problems yet.

I don't feed meat with any flavour additives, seasonings or perservatives. Don't want my dog eating any of that stuff. If that was the case, and I didn't care about the quality of the meat & if perservatives & additives were in the food,I would just feed kibble. I feed all kinds of vegetables,(string beans, carrots, brocolie, calliflower, lettuce, sweet potatoe(the only potatoe that they can have raw),spinich. yellow & green squash,etc. No raw potato, no onion raw or cooked. I just pop them in the food processor & freeze in meal quantities (about 1/4 cup). I usually feed her veggies & suppliments at the am feeding. I feed 2x a day with the heavier bone meal in the evening. As I stated before & now mostly use a 1/4 cup of the Healthy Kitchen (rehydrated according to the pkg instructions) instead of my own veggie mix along with ground meat for the am meal. Dogs need the raw veggies pulverized in order to break down the cellular wall to be able to absorb the nutrients from them. I also supplement Vitamin C,E, multi enzymes,multi probiotics along with Salmon oil and garlic caps. you can also adds some cottage cheese or live culture plain yougert if you like. My dog does not tolerate the milk products; so I do not add them. I also feed whole eggs, shell & all 3 to 5x a week. I use organic or Eglands Best eggs for her, since that is what I have in the house 'cause it's what I like to eat. I also feed marrow bones for snacks several times a week. You really need to get some books on this kind of feeding before you begin. It's a bit more involved than just tossing raw meat in the dog's bowl for a meal. The protien/ phospherous balance is important as are other things. You need to reasearch before starting this diet. Also, as with any change in diet, it needs to happen over a period of 7 to 10 days or more for the complete changeover...longer if you have a more sensitive dog. I also freeze my raw meat & then defrost before feeding it to kill any parasites that may be present in the meat when fresh. You can also look into one of the ready prepared raw foods on the market like Bravo or Canine Kraving. Depending on what you buy, they have veggies, meat & ground bone in the mixes.

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Thank you both for your very valuable help; i found those chicken quaters at walmart but i was a little hesitant to buy them before getting some feedback from the site....i will try the diet; i will supplement it with vitamin E and fish oils; do you think this would be sufficient or should i complement with other ingredients? .....Rita

Here are some excellent sites including step-by-step pictures of preparation and every Q&A I can imagine. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Since you have read Ed's info, these will (IMHO) round out your knowledge. (I save links when they turn out to be very good.........my only problem is keeping them in good order! LOL!)

If you type in "raw" or "barf" in the search function here, and adjust the date range to make it wider, you'll come up with a mountain of info.


This Leerburg link addresses fish oils (great for dogs and for us, IMO), and the additional E needed with the fish oils:
http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/showf...rue#Post4153152

Here's a site with lots of food info, and step-by-step preparation pictures.
http://touchmoon.com/dotters/raw/index.shtml

And this site has dozens of Q and A about raw food:
http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm

And the Healthy Kitchen food Anne Jones mentions, which I learned about here, is just great for a beginner, or for a backup when you haven't been shopping or the freezer's empty, or for the whole diet if you can afford it.

And this site briefly addresses Pano and B.A.R.F., and also has links to further discussion.
http://www.doglogic.com/food&feed.htm


P.S. It doesn't sound as if you need it, but this is an excellent and basic argument for fresh (real) food as opposed to commercial canned food and kibble:
http://www.caberfeidh.com/Truth.htm

Hi Rita:

You can definitely go insane researching information on this trying to do what is best for your dog. Believe me, I have been there not too long ago.
Keep the formula simple. Dogs have been eating raw meat and bones for ages. Start slow and build up until your dogs meal is a variety of meats/bone,organ meats,and if you desire veggies. Prince went through a bout of Pano when he was younger. I have not heard anything about a raw diet being better for that but I have read theories such as how much you are feeding your dog, genetics, vaccinations and so forth. One thing most people agree on is the quantity of food given when your dog is in the growing stages. It has been most repeated that you should keep your dog lean especially through his growing period. Every so often you should check his ribcage area, which gives you an indication whether you are feeding him/her too much. If I remeber correctly, when you feed a raw diet the basics are; to feed him/her 2 to 3% of their total adult weight; RMB's should not be any more than 40% of their total diet; organ meats no more than 10% of total diet and muscle meat would be the rest. You can also add in eggs, cottage cheese, veggies(should not be more than 5%), canned fish etc...to give him/her more of a variety. If your dog is healthy from the start, and you are giving a broad spectrum diet, additional supplements is usually not necessary. Many people like myself add salmon oil to the raw diet. It helps with their coats and I think also has antiinflammatory properties also. I am still learning about the raw diet and I am not perfect at this even to this day. It has become a little easier now because I have recently obtained a Holistic Vet to help me along the way. I also went online to a few yahoo chat groups such as K9nutrition,Rawdogcanada etc....This is where I started to learn about raw feeding. In all, just consider your furkid as the "extra family member" and when you are cooking just put some raw food on the side for them and that's it !

Elizabeth