This weekend was interesting to me...I worked scenarios with four dutch malinois...in the rain...in slippery surfaces...in elevation...in dark places.

These dogs were "asked" to bite in situations that were not comfortable for them. During the "agility" portion of the penetrations, two of them had handler issues. These two were imported as started but untitled KNPV dogs, the other two were raised from puppyhood by their handlers.

I think that genetics play a predominant role in the temperamental makeup of dogs. I also think that pups that are genetically predisposed to be independent and dominant...read handler aggressive material...are easily controlled and trained if you make a concerted effort from puppyhood.

Handler aggressive dogs may be the result of early handler mistakes, that then become too difficult to handle and are subsequently sold as "intense, extreme, only for experienced handlers", or the result of "lifting" a dog from his established pack, and placing him or her in a new pack...read selling a dog that was properly raised to a PD someplace, under the guidance of a new handler unfamiliar with what to do...or the result of extensive kenneling and frustration...misshandled and misschannelled.

I do not consider verbalizing, drive or play pinches, hard play, mouthiness, and a degree of resource guarding...handler aggression.

I would try to describe handler aggression as those aggressive behaviors...growls, bared teeth, postures, bites...that occur where a "disconnect", a rift, very little bond, disrespect, disregard, is evident between the dog and handler. The dog acts very independently...and obeys only because of conditioning and drive.

I would be very interested in knowing 1) how many people have raised handler aggressive dogs from puppyhood? 2) If you have, why do you think it happened? 3) Are handler aggressive dogs MOSTLY born or created? 4) If MOSTLY created, how?

Thanks.

I think it's a percentage deal - I believe that handler aggressive dogs must possess a certain genetic make-up that gives them the temperament to allow it to occur in the first place.
However....I also believe that *most* handler aggressive dogs started down the path of that problem when they were allowed to display that behavior and did not recieve a stong and timely correction to let them know that it was bad behavior.
So for me, the problem seems to be about 30% genetic/ 70% handler error.

And it's a pain in the butt to correct on an older dog, let me tell ya! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Yep!

I think you are also going to see more handler aggression issues with obtaining new “adult” dogs…. Especially with very confident, rank driven dogs. Combine that genetic spark with cruddy training and you got a mess on your hands.

When I got Airus I had handler aggression issues….. from what I was told, this was a trait he got that straight from daddy. (Can’t have drive out the yang and genetically perfect grip without at least one flaw <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) We haven’t conquered it but we have managed to suppress it through structured obedience and a lot of motivational work.

It still rears it’s ugly head now and again but it is usually my fault for being a bit unfair at times with a correction.

Hmmm? So? Here post the owners of a whole bunch of breeding kennels...as well as many "normal" people that raised working breed puppies...as well as a few trainers that have raised their dogs from puppyhood...right?

Have any of you EVER raised a handler aggressive dog?

Over the course of the last 20 yrs, I have bred 22 litters of GSD, and 2 litters of Mals, of which I thought to have picked the feistiest pups for "working" people. Some of these dogs worked biting people with true enthusiasm. The dams and sires were carefully picked dogs which one couldn't bully at all...and also very civil dogs...to strangers. All from dutch KNPV lines.

NOT ONE of those "placed" was handler aggressive.

Are all handler aggressive dogs imported? Do they always come to us as adults?

If NO ONE on this board has ever raised a handler aggressive dog...where the heck do they come from? How are they made? Why do they cross the puddle?

I harp on this because I think that the term "handler aggressive" is just a stupid marketing ploy that underscores an ill-raised dog...be it dutch, belgian, floridian, or from Mars. To me "handler aggressive" does not say anything other than the dog was badly raised. It's not something to be touted as a "Breed to this!!! He's a super producer of EXTREME dogs!"

I think they are raised by John Doe's that don't know what they're doing...all over the world, and then put down, sent to shelters, donated, or sold cheaply to brokers that can see a few $$$ through the dog's issues. These J. Doe's to include very able trainers that use purely positive reinforcement for sport competition, and then sell dogs that don't know how to respect any one...that simply obey from conditioning.

"If NO ONE on this board has ever raised a handler aggressive dog...where the heck do they come from? How are they made? Why do they cross the puddle?"


As usual...Andres cuts right to the heart of the matter. Great post, buddy! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, I have raised an extreme handler aggressive dog.

... after a really good "Meet Jesus" talk when he was younger, we no longer have a problem. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And yes, genetic, totally. He started in a BIG way at 4 mths old.

My last male started off being handler aggressive. Come to think of if my last female also, who was worst. Both of them use to all out attack you when they didn't get their way. Will has seen both of these dogs and he can tell you other than the occasional turn around in annoyance (then remembers who he is dealing with) while he is in the watch command and I'm hitting his front shoulders really pumping him up he is the most "handler calm" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> dogs around. If you seen him today you would never believe me when I tell you he was hell on the handler (me)when he was younger. If I had not whispered those sweet nothings in his ear when would bite me I today would have a "HANDLER AGGRESSIVE" dog. Instead I have a very well mannered Mal. Yes I know that is an oxymoron but it's true I do, very undercontrol. My point is he wasn't genetically well mannered as he is today.

Just a quick newB question. If handler "Chris" corrected his handler aggressive dog and sells it to newB handler "Dennis", does "Dennis" have to got thru the whole process of fixing the handler aggressive dog again?

ole' Dennis PM'd me and brought something to my attention, when I said, "My point is he wasn't genetically well mannered as he is today." I was ending that being kinda half humorous. Surely I know I can't change genetics <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> But I'm still working on that in my secret lab <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I plan to be a rich man one day.

Dennis,
I would say to answer you above question it would have to be reinforced by the new handler, because these dogs will try to gain new rank when the structure of the pack shifts. They know when they are dealing with someone different. I don't see it being any different than if the alpha male died and they accepted another male into the pack, the instinct to take advantage of the open position for better rank will get them trying themselves with the new handler, but I believe it will be easier to suppress with the new handler than the first one because the dog has learned to live not being the alpha JMO atleast thats what I'v seen.