I have read Lou Castle's Crittering article from his website, and have a question. Sorry if this has been covered in another one of the many posts regarding this subject. if so, please direct me to that link.

My question centers on ensuring the dog doesn't 'chase and bite' when the handler is not around / leash is not attached. The Crittering article does not talk about doing handler out of sight part of training.

Can someone give me more specifics on training the dog not to alert and chase "prey" when the handler is not present?

The particular dog I'm thinking of has chased and bitten a jogger recently. (ACD)
thank you,
Michelle

Hi Michelle, i don't know the answer to your question, but even my older male with good obedience, would probably chase a jogger if he wasn't supervised, and definetly my female, and my 6mo. old......... , well i'm never going to know, because they're never going to be loose unsupervised, ever, i like my dogs to much to let that happen <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />,
AL

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My question centers on ensuring the dog doesn't 'chase and bite' when the handler is not around / leash is not attached. The Crittering article does not talk about doing handler out of sight part of training.
Can someone give me more specifics on training the dog not to alert and chase "prey" when the handler is not present?

Michelle my protocol works whether the handler is around or not. It has the dog thinking that the stim came from his attention to the prey animal and has nothing to do with the handler. It's so "not related to you" that someone else can handle your dog during the training as long as they follow the instructions provided. The dog learns that looking away from the prey animal brings comfort.

BTW it works on other type of prey than animals. I have one report that it stopped a dog from chasing golf carts.

And its still working! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Just to be sure the dog is absolutely attributing the stim with his focus on the prey, shouldn't you set the dog up to be tempted by the jogger, with no leash, and with all handlers out of sight? I mean, just to be sure that the dog reacts the expected way when you remove 2 noticeable elements (handler and leash)
Otherwise, isn't it possible the dog will *try* the situation, and find himself free to chase/bite?

thanks,

Michelle,

I have read a lot of the posts and articles on aggressive dogs on this site as well as others. I have an aggressive dog myself. Once a dog has bitten I don’t think you can ever truly trust that they will not bite again… even under controlled supervision not to mention unsupervised off leash.

You would have to train the dogs not to chase anything that moves… i.e. kids on bikes, babies in strollers etc... In my situation, I see it as a lawsuit waiting to happen, a risk I don’t feel is worth taking. Plus, I could lose my dog and I don’t want to have to live with the guilt that I let it happen and someone else got hurt.

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Just to be sure the dog is absolutely attributing the stim with his focus on the prey, shouldn't you set the dog up to be tempted by the jogger, with no leash, and with all handlers out of sight?

I suppose you mean that this should be done after the training is completed. I have no problem with anyone doing this. It's the same as with any other part of training, it needs to be tested.

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Once a dog has bitten I don’t think you can ever truly trust that they will not bite again… even under controlled supervision not to mention unsupervised off leash.

All dogs have teeth. All dogs can bite. You should never trust that a dog won't bite under the right (wrong) circumstances. That being said you should be able to know how the dog will react under various situations. But even then you should be ready to give a command to stop him from injuring anyone.

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You would have to train the dogs not to chase anything that moves… i.e. kids on bikes, babies in strollers etc...

Not really. Most dogs won't chase everything that moves. They'll have fixated on a couple of prey items and ignored most of the others. Some dogs generalize. I had one dog that stopped chasing all prey items in his environment. I've had some others that stopped chasing all animals of a similar size to the one that he was crittered on. Some dogs need to be trained with every prey animal that's in their environment.

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In my situation, I see it as a lawsuit waiting to happen, a risk I don’t feel is worth taking. Plus, I could lose my dog and I don’t want to have to live with the guilt that I let it happen and someone else got hurt.

I'm not sure where this leaves you. Do you intend to never let the dog off leash anywhere in public and never let anyone get within range of him?

QUOTE : I suppose you mean that this should be done after the training is completed. I have no problem with anyone doing this. It's the same as with any other part of training, it needs to be tested. Poster: Lou Castle
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Thanks, yes, I mean after the training is complete. In this case, the dog is always in the identical situation: same yard, same jogger. So at least we've got a very narrow range of prey stimulus we are trying to change!

Now I have a new question! How come in the Crittering protocol, you say it usually only requires 3-4 sessions spaced a day apart, and then one more lesson a week later.
but in the obedience commands, you recommend 60 days of automatic corrections given with commands, plus another 30 days of successful automatic obedience (w/ handler just being prepared to stim if the dog disobeys).

I understand there is a difference because in the crittering episode, the handler is supposed to be detached, and in the obedience commands, obviously the handler is involved. But, in each case, doesn't it boil down to the dog performing the desired behavior to stop or avoid the stim? Why do you have to do so many automatic reps with the OB commands and not the Crittering?

Of course, the dog's behavior is always the owner's responsibility 100% of the time. Dogs can/will bite, and safety and management are always the owner's responsibility.

Thank you for your time and patience with my questions!

Lou,

I understood the question to be dealing with a dog off leash when the handler isn't present, who has previously chased and bitten a jogger.

I personally will never leave my dogs off leash unattended. There are just too many things that can happen in a split second. That is not to say that I don’t’ leave them unleashed and unattended in my house, fenced in back yard or in the back of my car, but it is usually an environment I can control to some degree of certainty.

However, I have too very different dogs… one who can go anywhere with me ie…. Soccer games, the park etc and I trust with high level of certainty that she will behave. I can put her in a long down and walk off to mingle with other people and she will stay. Her eyes are always on me waiting for further instructions from me… even then, I would never leave her unattended. There are just too many people that hate GSD who have nothing better to do then start trouble. It’s as much if not more for the dog’s protection. I usually only put her in a long down and walk away when I am testing her OB under distraction and my attention is still on her even if it looks like I am not watching. Other then that… she is at my side. I just don’t feel leaving a dog unattended is wise.

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Do you intend to never let the dog off leash anywhere in public and never let anyone get within range of him?

Regarding the dog that has bitten… no, I will probably never ever let him off leash in public… nor would I let someone who doesn’t know him pet him… and that is a decision made for the protection of the public and him.