anyone have trouble with grip strength on initial strike for tug during a back up bite?

my pup is 7 months, he has pretty strong grips on almost anything (i could lift him off of the ground if i wanted) however on his initial strike on a short back up bite on a leather tug he stuffs it back really far but doesnt bite down hard enough to sustain the bite. i know he is young and i have made sure the distance is short, but he slips right off the tug. if its a large sack or ball on a string its better but i just feel that there is some reason why he is not clamping down that hard on the initial strike. any thoughts?

thanks

Get rid of the leather tug and try a linen or jute tug, report back, and lets go from there <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

When you are backing up, try to put the tug to the side of you. It is too much for some dogs to have it in front of you in close for a time, that is probably your problem. Hold it to the side.

i am holding it out on the side when he comes in. should i hold it out there the whole time he is coming?

I think you have to read your dog based on your training/interaction/playing history. Have you corrected him for accidentally chewing on your hand while you do this? It could be he's doing that out of respect for you. My dog plays tug with me in a very respectful manner...everyone else gets NO respect, and "playing" becomes a bit dangerous. What's the diameter of the leather tug? Brand name? Are you using this as a reward system for obedience? When you say "back up bite", do you mean the dog is "down", "sit" or something, and then you give him the "release" command, or are you sort of agitating/playing while someone else holds him? Are you teaching him to out the tug? If yes, how?

Finally, it's good to remember that your puppy is only 7 months old - he's simply developing. The grip and intensity you can expect from a 7 mo old is VASTLY different than what you can expect from a 2 yr old. Young, under-exercised jaw muscles tire very quickly. Does your dog chew a lot?

Try to answer the above questions...maybe that'll provide additional input of value so we can be of further assistance.

i agree about reading your dog, etc. whichis something that i (and almost anyone) isnt perfect at. i can also appreciate the fact that he is only 7 months old, i know he will be a completely different dog at maturity. with that said he grips strong and hard on anything including the same tug if given a second opportunity to strike. the good thing is that he always puts it in the very back of his mouth on all of his strikes, even the initial ones where he isnt griping strongly.

the tug came from dean calderon (i believe its probably shweikert), its about 12 inches in length and about the size of the barrel of a baseball bat. the guy i got it from said that its good because its slick and it forces them to grip down tightly.

when i am talking about a back up bite, im talking about someone holding him while i build drive with the tug by teasing and calling him to me very animated then lets him go from a short distance, the tug just amy be a bad one for this exercise. i will mention that it seemed to take awhile for him to go into drive for the larger tug and even a ball, but now when he sees the tug he is all over it (its his favorite) but its kinda hard and its leather and slick.
he barks pretty good (its a baby 7 month old bark) he can be a little hectic (which is never rewarded).

i dont know if its necessarily a respect issue with me because he will plow into me if i dont hold it to the side. its just like he stuffs it way back and his momentum carries through and it comes right out, when he hits the ground a few feet away he comes right in and gets a stronger grip.

OK...here´s what I would think. He's young and developing his bite. Nothing to worry about. If you're going to go with someone else holding your dog, and YOU taking the bite, I might suggest the following (it will take time, as in a couple of months or more):

If the tug has two handles, cut away one of them, and tie a bit (4 ft) of soft leash to the other one. I don't like to use the hardware for this. From a short distance away (8 ft), have your bud let the dog go, you take the bite, and without being harsh or abrupt quickly slide it out the side of the mouth. If your dog grips it hard from the start, let him have it, and you keep the end of the leash in hand. Leather is quite good for this (I think). If he mouths it, pull it away with a smooth jerk (oxymoron, huh?), then bring him in, teach him to out using no compulsion, so he learns the tug will "reanimate" just after he lets go, and then you can start playing again.

The alternative to this, is just not to worry...your dog's a puppy.

this is exactly what i do for the most part, when he hits it, i pull it out, then he reattacks it and holds tight enough to swing (or whatever). he will sit while playing tug and will out most of the time (no complusion used) mainly do to my stillness, when he outs i come back alive.

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If he mouths it, pull it away with a smooth jerk (oxymoron, huh?), then bring him in, teach him to out using no compulsion, so he learns the tug will "reanimate" just after he lets go, and then you can start playing again.

If he mouths it pull it away...if HE DOESN'T...then bring him in, etc. I ommitted writing "if he doesn't" in.

Also, REAL respect is more often reserved (by dogs) for using their TEETH. Bite inhibition is a BIG part of growing up in a litter. So I would not readily discard that as a possible cause, unless your dog HAS NO QUALMS about chewing on your hand VERY HARD, and neither do you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If he accidentally takes your hand and you say "Ah! Ah!", or "Ouch!", or de-animate the toy/tug (while you look at how much blood you're loosing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, then it may still be a respect issue.

This is further supported by the fact that the dog - once quite sure of what he's biting - clamps down hard (for his age?)

You mentioned "ball on a string"...which the dog can't take to the back of his mouth, and which is held more easily in place by the dog's canines...so the ball and the tug - I think - are not quite comparable in the "bite dynamics" dept.

i agree about the bite dynamics, but i still believe that the grip can be strengthened by using it, also with a ball on a string you avoid crooked biting techniques learned from a tug only utilized with one hand. if the dog bites with strength with the front of its mouth on something it cant grip in the back of its mouth, it will still grip equally as hard with the back of its mouth if it grips deep when allowed. IMO.

he isnt mouthy on the tug unless i do something during the into my arms (like lift him off of the ground) which i do from time to time just to calm him again with long soothing pets to the back and rear legs, for the most part he has a good amount of dead prey drive (or carry instinct as i call it) he doesnt mouth me at all, rather he targets me due to my movement during his last sweeping attempts at success when he is chasing a prey object. he has ripped up shirts and he has bitten me a bunch of times since i have had him while building drive by myself with a ball on a string or tug.

it very well may be time to introduce a helper to the bitework, however the reason why i waited as long as i have is that there are certain things i wanted done during the foundation that i prefered to do (like the "out" a certain way, etc) the only thing is that i dont know what i should use for OB, he is not quite as crazy for the ball on a string like he is for any tugs, but at the same time he just really fiqured out the the ball on a string is a toy and within the last month has started to chase it accordingly, but his eyes dont zone out as much and his bottom jaw doesnt quiver as much and teeth dont clap as intensely when he is chasing a tug. but like i said the ball on a string is a new toy. he does love a strap of leather, i just havent seen many people using that as a toy for OB in drive, i guess it would work if he prefers it.