Greetings, I posted this question to another list (SAR) and thought I would post here since I don't think there is a lot of crossover and would like to have the opinions of some folks over here.

A lot of folks like to get the "area search dog" (one who is proficient at trailing and air scenting) started in scent discriminating trailing before proceeding to do air-scent problems either with or without a scent article.

I believe the thinking is it is easy to transition in this sequence than starting with a non scent specific air scent dog and progressing to scent discriminating trailing.

With that objective in mind, would anyone be interested in discussing the pros and cons of each approach? (on lead or off lead trailing, or tracking through drive)

Not exactly on topic, but I don't consider trailing an "off-lead" operation. I break it down this way:

Tracking Dogs are trained to use ground scent exclusively to locate a subject, following the exact track the subject has left with little deviation. It's slow (limitation), but methodical, precise and good to use if knowing the exact position of the track or locating evidence is needed (advantage.) They are worked on-lead.

Air Scenting Dogs are trained to use air scent exclusively to locate a subject. It has the advantage of being able to search a large open area relatively fast. It has the disadvantage of being limited to environemental conditions (see Hatch Grahams article "How Long is Your Shadow" regarding probability of detection for air scenting dogs) and the distance the dog can effectively work from the subject. The dog will also follow the "path of least resistance" to the subject, dependent on the scent cone and wind conditions, etc. They are worked off-lead.

Trailing Dogs are trained to use (and exploit) ANY available scent to locate a subject. This includes ground scent AND air scent. They have the advantage (if properly trained, such as TTD) of being able to follow scent FAST, relatively accurately and with little concern for environemental conditions. The disadvantage of a trailing dog is mostly handler oriented (not being able to keep up with the dog, having a difficult time following the dog through certain terrain, etc.) The dog will follow (relatively) the path that the subject took, but may cast if it is to the dogs advantage. They are almost always worked on-lead and, I believe, have the highest probability of detection of all search dogs (assuming it was properly trained).

All three types of searching have advantages and disadvantages.

As for teaching scent discrimination first or last, I think the more important issue is to train tracking/trailing BEFORE air scenting in any case. You can always go back and teach scent discrimination to a dog that has already been trained, but you will almost always have a difficult time teaching a dog that was trained to air scent first, how to properly and effectively track/trail.

Just my two cents. Thoughts/comments?

 Quote:

Not exactly on topic, but I don't consider trailing an "off-lead" operation. I break it down this way: ........

Just my two cents. Thoughts/comments?

Actually you are on topic and this concept of "off lead trailing" is one that is common in certain necks of the woods which is really why I asked the question

The argument I have heard for it -- is the dog is freer to work out scent pools etc. more naturally -- but it is not as common a construct as on lead.....

Most certainly I think the concept of trailing before air scent is pretty established with many folks and myself and several on my team feel that is THE way to go but the off-lead thing is still under evaluation.....

Here are some links
http://www.nwk9.com/nwk9_trailing.htm
http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/tracking.txt
http://www.jonnijoyce.com/articles/archive/trailing_offlead.htm

Was hoping for more responses.

I have been growing to find that perhaps off lead trailing is part of some of the problems I have been seeing and am thinking of scrapping and starting all over on lead. Not an easy decision but she is still a young dog and I think one of the cardinal rules with dog training is 'be consistent'

I have seen things go from good to bad in regards to fringe scenting and lack of dedication to the trail with the off lead work. I am in a good position to restart since I broke my ankle this summer and it may be a few more months before I am really good in the woods off trail and we can do a lot of on-lead training in suburban (schools etc) terrain.

I am just a beginner but I will give you experience.

I started with the foot step tracking. Then went on to what would be considered the TTD tracking. I think that is what it would be called. When we started this it was all on leash. Then I tried it of leash. Does not work as well for me.

The first reason is it is hard to keep up with a GSD trotting thrugh the woods. The second is she seems to be more accurate with the foot step type tracking. She does seem to incorporate foot step and air scenting while on leash. If I can tell she is relying to much on air scenting I just tell her "nose down" and she goes back to the foot step.

I dont let her off leash unless we get to a spot with very thick underbrush that I cannot make it through. It seems this is when she goes to air scenting. I will let her off leash if I know the target is withing 30 yards or so. I carry radios to keep in contact with the target.

I have 100% recall but I do not like to let her get out of sight for to long. I really watch it when it gets closer to hunting season when there are people out there who like to shoot dogs that "might" be chasing a deer.

Another reason I keep her on leash is because when she is off she will track out ahead of me then turn back to make sure I am on her trail. It does not make sense for her to have to keep starting and stopping a trail. She can stay on it if she is on leash, even if I am jogging behind her.

We make our goal of 2 miles today. Not much to bragg about, but like I said I am a beginner.

Dave, I think you are on the right track...I am reassesing....I have seen the same thing as you and you sure cannot see a dog throw a negative when you cannot see them.

I have learned that it is pretty easy to keep up with an offlead dog when age and complication are added to the trail but I am seeing a problem with the dog actively pursuing the strongest scent...precision.....fully understanding that the strongest scent may not be on the footfall path.

I seem to learn best by the school of hard knocks, unfortunately by learning what does NOT work instead of what DOES work.

Nancy,
I pretty much agree with everything Scott wrote, but to address scent-specific vs. non...

Ideally, with a new dog (or pup) I think I'd prefer to teach scent-dicrimination/scent-specific tracking before doing any other type of trailing or air-scent work. I do think you could go back and train a non-sccent specific dog to be scent-specific, it would just take quite a bit of work....don't know for sure b/c I've not done this.

As for trailing off-lead, to me that is basically air-scenting (see Scott's definitions above), because an air-scent dog is going to use both air and ground scent...off-lead, as would a trailing dog...on-lead. To differentiate the two, I'd like to see a trailing dog be scent-specific.