You know when you are working a dog in drive and how they respond overall i.e. focusing on you with a fast response to commands etc.?

Well, tonite I take the pooch outside for his bathroom break and afterward he's just sniffing around about 20ft away from me. So, I say his name quick and short to get his attention. Basically, just goofing around with him like we sometimes do.

So up goes his head and he's locked on to me. So I give him a short quick fuss and he bolts over to me and sits next to me looking right at me.

Okay, I say to myself, let's see how far we can take this.

So off I go and do a short fuss around the yard and then give him a sitz with the same short quick command. BOOM! Down he goes into a sitz. Then I platz him and he drops like a sack of you know what. As soon as he did that I released him and loved him up like you wouldn't believe. He's jumping all over and was obviously very pleased with himself as well.

Given the fact that he's only 10 mths. old and we are still following the Building Drive Focus and Grip DVD, I did about two or three more minutes of this and then I quit while I was still ahead and he was still hopping around when released.

Now what gets me was that I had no treats with me, no tug, no ball and he's working, albeit briefly, like I had all three.

What drive would he be in?? The "I just had a great pee" drive"??

I didn't think it would be prey/food drive as I had nothing to stimulate him.

A play drive of some sort??

Your dog is probably going into prey drive in anticipation of the play reward. Sounds like you have a nice dog, just make sure to keep up on your drive building sessions and reward intermediately. My dog also starts to get keyed up when we do obedience he knows he's going to get his tug at some point soon.

One of the great things about the GSD is that they have a strong set of pack instincts that lend themselves very well to training.

The dog was probably primarily motivated by prey drive, as that's how you've been training, but also your praise has/develops a lot of power as well. Your dog probably behaved as he did because he expected a fat prey reward for his work, but your praise was somewhat rewarding all by itself.

Here's why:

First, praise becomes a secondary reinforcer for dogs during training. You praise and give the dog reward, you praise and give the dog reward, you praise and give the dog reward. The praise itself becomes a secondary reinforcer. (like the "click" does when clicker training)

Second, dogs being social critters bring to the table some really great pack and family instincts. Dogs desire to be an important part of their pack. Your praise and attention as the pack leader is in itself pleasurable for the dog and holds some power as reinforcement all by itself. This is one of the traits that sets the GSD apart as a working dog. I don't think you can find a dog who is as good a worker as he is a companion. It's my opinion that you can't find dogs with as much toughness and drive, who also have a high level of willingness to please their leaders, as you can in GSDs.

Put those things together and you get what you saw. A dog that works primarily for the prey reward and who's drive is highest for the prey reward, but who also gains reward from your praise and attention. He enjoys your attention and acknowledgement of his existance because he is a dog, and you also build upon that by adding more power to your attention and acknowledgement during drive training.

It's a win-win situation and the true beauty of good dog training.

It's also, by the way, how you manage to perform in trials without holding a ball or tug. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

It's learned behavior from the dog who expects real rewards from you at random times and it's also the secondary reinforcements it gets along the way from you in the form of praise and positive body language.

Well, that's encouraging news especially given our stage of training.

Jason - all things considered, at this point, I couldn't ask for a better dog. I've owned three previous "family" dogs and have never gone beyond basic OB with them and Riddick, being somewhat of a hard dog, has worked out wonderfully for me and my rookie mistakes.

Robert - While I realize that GSDs were bred to be a working dog and they get some satisfaction from doing the work, can it be possible that some dogs see the exercise itself as the reward? Or am I confusing their working nature with drive satisfaction?

The reason I ask relates to our tracking sessions. When we track, Riddick will track like the devil until he finds his quarry. I encourage with the such command but don't praise. Once he finds his quarry, a person at this point, he gives them a quick sniff and then he's done.

It's hard to explain but his body language/attitude after the track indicates an attitude of "well, that was fun. I'm done now."

To me, it appears that he gets his satisfaction from doing the actual track as opposed to finding someone (reward)and praise (secondary reward).

I've sort of experimented in the type of reward he receives by having the quarry go anywhere from remaining passive, at the end of the track, right up to heaping a lot of praise on him. The same goes for my praise at end. It has been anywhere from a simple pat and a "good boy" right up to jumping around like a fool and giving him tons of praise. The primary reward (finding the person) nor the secondary reward (praise) seems to matter to him.

Thus, it appears to me that any "rewards" he receives at the end of the track are secondary, or even inconsequential, to the track itself.

Am I on the right "track" (pun intended) or am I missing something here?

"can it be possible that some dogs see the exercise itself as the reward?"



Well, yes and no. I'm of the opinion that the dog will get some reinforcement from your attention alone, from being with you and you being happy that he's there. I don't think that heeling is rewarding at all, but the interaction with the handler and your approval of his behavior is rewarding in itself.

A lot of that has to do with your training and using other more powerful rewards, prey rewards or food rewards, but some is just the joy of being with you in a positive context.



For tracking, I do think that the behavior itself is rewarding to many dogs. This is what we'd want to see in a well bred dog. Drive satisfaction, or pleasure, or reinforcement, or however you want to look at it comes from not only "satisfying" the drive, but often from performing the behaviors that would lead to satisfying the drive. Some dogs don't have to find something to enjoy using their noses to follow scent. It pays off of course if they love following scent AND they love getting the payoff of food or play at the end of the track because it's twice the motivation for them to work the track. When things get difficult, stressfull, or frustrating it will be great to have as much motivation as possible.

Prey drive is a good example. The behavior of chasing something is rewarding, even if the dog doesn't catch it. Running down prey probably feels pretty good for our working dogs, whether they catch it or not.


Are you following me?

I'm with ya. Kinda like chasin' the gals. Sometimes the most satisfaction is derived from the chase!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Your statement..."When things get difficult, stressfull, or frustrating it will be great to have as much motivation as possible."

I think that statement alone holds a lot of value. I never even considered that the extra praise could quite possibly carry the dog through a trying track.

I'll be sure to keep the praise at a high level even though, at this point, he doesn't appear to be overly enthusiastic about it.

Nicely put! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />