our 5 month old has been in class now for a week and doing great with heeling. But she refuses to sit. She does sit at home without a lead for treats but never during class. We begrudgigly are using a chain "p" proper fitting. When we do a quick "pop" of the lead/choke and sit command she starts to shake and looks very worried as though she did something wrong and now she is being jerked/choked for it. The trainer wants us to jerk/choke her harder but that is something I refuse to do. I will not hurt my daughter. makes me cry that I have to do the pop so many times and see her shake like she does. In turn when DH is doing it he gets so fustrated that he grabs her rump and pushed her to the floor. I know that her hips are still a bit sore after twisting it about a month ago falling out of the car after the 2 year old puhed her. Could she be refusing to sit due to pain? any other thoughts or ideas to get her to sit? they do not allow us to use treats to bribe the results. I don't want her to fail jsut because we refuse to hurt her. We were forced to hurt another labbie and he turned violent for doing what we are being ask by this trainer, but they have no idea about that and I am sure that they have no interest in knowing why we refuse to hurt her with how they reacted when we refused to continue to hurt her and cause her pain.

On the other hand Fudgy our little boy is doing great. don't have to use heel comand that often nor the sit and his down is roll over and bare belly. He is so easy and only 8 weeks younger than Hope.

I'll try to be polite here, so please forgive me if this comes out wrong, but:

Honestly, you are suffering from so many misconceptions about dog behavior and dog training that you need to start at step one and learn about dogs in general, then start the learning process about training.
You're humanizing your dog, but it's a dog with the drives and behaviors of a dog, not a small furry person. This is a classic mistake that pet owners make and it often leads to big trouble in dog ownership.

There's a lot of good articles written by Ed on this site, you'd help yourself by reading them, they'd be a great start in your education about dogs and proper dog ownership and training.
And I'd strongly suggest getting the Leerburg video on "Basic Dog Obedience", it's got many valuable ideas and training tips in it.

Yep, Will's answer was very polite. You really need to check out the Basic Dog Obedience DVD and maybe the Puppy - 8wks to 8 mos. DVD. You can pay for it by not going to any more of these training sessions. In the mean time, you can find a ton of information here by reading the articles and various posts. Start with Ed's philosophy on dog training: http://www.leerburg.com/philosophy.htm

You don't go into specifics, but this same trainer "forced" you to do something to another dog that allegedly turned it violent? And "they have no idea about that"? And you're going back to the same trainer again? Hello? Doesn't that seem . . . wrong? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

So the pup will sit at home (with no/few distractions) but in class, with plenty of distractions and no treats, she won't sit. She's been trained somewhat to sit, but since the trainer refuses to allow you to use treats, result: she won't sit. Hello? Sounds like the trainer is from what Ed calls the old school "yank and crank." Especially inappropriate for a young pup.

Dump this trainer and read up before you're forced to ruin this dog.

You don't go into specifics, but this same trainer "forced" you to do something to another dog that allegedly turned it violent? And "they have no idea about that"? And you're going back to the same trainer again? Hello? Doesn't that seem . . . wrong?

No it wasn't the same trainer, and no they have no idea that we had been through this with another pup. We are not even in the same area as we were back then.

Pay for the DVD by not going to anymore of the classes? how is that when we will be out the cost of the classes as well as the price of the DVD?

No I am not happy, less than happy with this guy nd his wife that are hosting the class but at the same time I can modify it at home and work on the sit. She has the sit down without the lead but isn't sitting when asked while on lead working. Could it be a confussion because to her sit means where I am at looking up at you not by your side looking at your hip?

There are a lot of distractions going on at home since we have 5 fur-kids three that know commands, one that follows them to a T in stays, and the two pups in class learning. One of the pups is a dream to work with, but our HOPE is having a bit of trouble with siting at the side of you.

I have tried training by reading and by videos but that doesn't help with my disapline knowing that by this time next week we need to have A-B-C down. Or helping our littleest Fudgy to not look at the other pups while he is struting his stuff since he is a go prospect at showing.

I'm going to help you out.

1. Find a quiet place with no distractions where you and this dog can work together, alone.

2. Teach dog to sit with treats, continue to give treats while dog sits having them hold position very quickly, then release the dog by saying "OK" at the same time you stop feeding treats.

3. Extend time dog sits before release and extend time dog has to sit before you feed treats.

4. Start rewarding dog with treats on a random basis, only one treat every few sits.

5. When dog will hold position for about a minute and will sit even if you don't have a treat in front of them, move to a different location in your house.

6. Start over, reward every time the dog sits and continue to reward till released.

7. Stretch out time dog has to sit for reward.

8. Make rewards random, only rewarding every few sits. (sounding familiar?)

9. When dog sits at that location well, move to another and repeat.

10. Move to another location and repeat.

11. Now that dog will sit in different locations, and will sit for a little while, and will sit while only being rewarded randomly, you can introduce simple distractions. For example, have someone enter the room and watch you train. Start over rewarding every time and go through the progression.

12. Introduce more distractions and reward more and more to keep dog from being distracted.




The goal here is to generalize the learning. The dog has to learn that sit means sit anywhere and even with some distractions.

Only when you have this part down do you start to introduce corrections.

You've got some work ahead of you before you do that.

Just curious why she wouldn't have quit the class, and gotten her money back right away?

"since we have 5 fur-kids"

No, you have five dogs. They're not "fur-kids" and I've observed that owners that think that way have by far the largest numbers of problems ( self-induced ) with dog ownership.

I didn't quick the class that first day because I dind't know that they would force us to choke our babies. This happened last night at the second class.

Second I know sit, she knows sit jsut not in the process of Heeling then sitting at your side. That is the problem which makes me wonder if there isn't something going on physically with her beyond not doing it.

I also see that there is one reply that seems to have been recently removed calling me a spoof. Because I call them my fur-kids or the littlest. They are not jsut caged animals that come out of the cage when we have the time for them. They are family and treated as such.

I came for help figuring out why she refuses to sit during heel sits yet understands it other times without lead. Yet instead it seems like pouncing on me for other things without giving anything as to the reasons. Seems as though I need to find support somewhere else.

You taught her sit in front of you didn't you? Dogs learn situations and patterns. Sit to your dog only works when she is in front of you. Since during the heel, she is on your left side, she doesn't understand. The fact that I was a little angry because your dog is shaking, and you continued to correct her. I should of been angry with the fakey-wannabe trainers you are going to.

The biggest problem I see (as Will has pointed out) is that while your dogs (or any of our dogs) may be part of the family, they are NOT people/children/kids/babies.

And the bottom line is that you ARE treating them as such. They are DOGS, NOT people. STOP viewing them, treating them, training them, talking to them and thinking about them as people. They are NOT people. If you are not willing to accept this FACT, then you are most likely going to be wasting your time attempting to train your DOGS, as you won't be willing to do what it takes to have a happy, reliable, well-trained DOG.

While giving a physical correction (a "pop" on the live ring of a pinch and/or choke collar) at this age/point in the dogs training is not advisable, at some point you WILL have to PHYSICALLY correct the dog. This means a "pop" on the lead (attached to a pinch or choke collar). Depending on the dog, this pop can be anywhere from slight to a full-out choking of the dog. If you can't accept this or are not willing to do this, you are wasting your time.

Robert gives excellent advice on what you SHOULD be doing right NOW. At this age (five months) and this point in the dog's training (confused, unsure), ALL training should be fun, positive and motivational using praise along with treats or a favorite toy. Training should take place somewhere were there are NO other distractions. No rabbitts. No other dogs (including your own). No people. No traffic. Once the dog performs the command 100% under these conditions, move to another location and do the same thing. Once the dog can do this 100% of the time in different locations with no distractions, gradually introduce and increase the number of distractions until the dog can do it 100% of the time in strange places with distractions.

Once you are at that point, you WILL have to introduce some compulsion/force/physical corrections. It you want your dog to be rock-solid 100% of the time, you WILL have to do this. By that time, however, the dog should be old enough physically, mentally and psychologically to withstand a certain degree of compulsion from you (about a year old). That degree will vary from dog to dog.

The above is for EACH separate command (Sit, Down, etc)

You have gotten some good advice from the above posts. It may not be what you want to hear, but it is from experienced, capable dog trainers that know what they are talking about. I apologise if I come across as blunt, but we (you) are talking about training DOGS, not raising children. The sooner you make that distinction in your head, the sooner you will be on the road to happier, easier more productive training.

Best regards.