Hello, this is my first post although I have watched Mr. Frawleys' first two tapes and did some previous reading on this website.
I have two questions:
1) I trained my three year old GSD with treats and then slowly switched to praise in his training but the new trainer we are going to uses treats ALL the time for everything. My dog is very slow to respond with praise only so I have moved back to treats. I this bad? I get sick of carrying treats around all the time and I feel annoyed that he is only motivated for food (or ball). I have a four month old GSD also and she is very motivated by food. Should I use food when teaching new stuff only, or just scrap it?
2) Second question is about my three year olds behaviour as of late. At dog classes or events he is fine around people but lately he will snap at hands if someone goes to pet him. Do I need to socialize him more or is this more serious. Note: He gets a fast stern correction for showing aggresssion at any time (towards dogs or people).
Thank you for your input!

Do you work for free? Most likely not so why would your dog?
Would you work harder for a boss that gave you a pat on the back and an at a boy every week or one that gave you money?
Treats/rewards are a necessity in good training. After the dog knows what he is supposed to do you increase the time between rewards and when he is old enough you add corrections so he knows he has to do it no matter what BUT you never stop using rewards when you train. I have heard of a couple dogs that will work happily for just praise but it is very very rare.
Use crazy food while imprinting the 4 month old pup. A properly imprinted puppy is awsome to see. They love it. Remember to keep the sessions short though.
The "snapping" issue is tough to answer without seeing it I think. This is a new thing that all of a sudden started happening at 3 years of age? How is he "snapping"?...Does he growl, bark, show teeth, hackles?....

Pat

Hello Patrick:
Thank you for your advice!! It is true that dogs work better for tasty food, I guess after reading "The Art of Raising a Puppy" by the Monks of New Skete I got all inspired to train without food. It's not working so good....They both work better for with treats, I just keep hoping I nice pet and hug will suffice! LOL
My 3 year old guy snaps without growling or raising hackels. He will act proctective when people are a distance away (not something I encourage), but when they get close and I say "say hello" he acts very excited and happy to see this new person but when they go to pet him he will sniff their hand a lot and then sort of snap. One time a guy (not someone I knew) unexpectedly leaned over to say hello to him and Vader (my dog) snapped at his face. He has never bitten anyone but he will sort of snap the air. What do you think? Is this odd?
PS: anyone have any comments on "The Monks of New Skete" training methods?

I have never trained a dog with food. I see that many trainers do this. I have never trained a GSD but have trained more retrievers than I care to remember. I can not imagine a GSD having a harder head than a Lab. Not once have I ever trained a retriever using food as a reward. I would not want the dog to associate feeding with doing a good job. I don’t want the dog to eat the birds its retrieving. I am certain training with food will give faster results for most commands and would more than likely cut down on the number or reprimands the dog gets. Not to mention a few less gray hairs. I have had excellent results just praising the dog. With lots of emphasis on praise! My two cents.

Sam,
I don't know of a single trainer worthy of being called "trainer" who does not advocate the use of food and/or toy reinforcers. You are obviously seeing that it is working, the trick is to begin varying the reinforcers and lengthening time between reinforcers once the behaviors are solid.

As for the snarling....if the corrections were effective, this would not be an ongoing problem. They are obviously not working. By definition, appropriate punishment should be deminishing the behavior. My hunch, not having seen your dog, is that the reason for the corrections is not clear. When this happens, the dog can actually begin to fend people off with snapping and snarling, as people approaching become predictors that something bad is about to happen. Why must people pet and/or lean over your dog? Simply tell people the dog is not friendly with strangers and don't allow them to approach him. Problem solved.

And it would be helpful to have an experienced trainer observe you with the dog. They can help with the timing, level, and effectiveness of both your corrections and reinforcers.

T

 Quote:

I am certain training with food will give faster results for most commands and would more than likely cut down on the number or reprimands the dog gets.

That statement is right on the mark for me. Of course I CAN train with mostly corrections and negatives and praise, but I'd RATHER have the dog loving to train and crazy happy to learn. And if it takes yummy treats and tug toys to get the 'love of the game' than I'm in 100%. Since all these methods progress to less frequent treats, and longer times between the tug games, it's not about having the dogs learn to NOT listen when you have no food or toy.

And the snapping at strangers would really concern me. I know you said you think it's protective, but I read it as a 'fear' thing. A happy, secure and confident dog would have no reason to snap at someone that YOU have shown is ok and is not acting threatening. I know I'd start having my dogs LOVE LOVE LOVE people and their hands by carrying around chicken/cheese/liver and handing it out to all the strangers I meet to feed my girls. If EVERY hand coming at my dog is filled with a yummy treat, be hard for them to continue with the 'ooo, that person is scary' mindset. Someone else mentioned that if you are ALWAYS having to correct when new people are around, you may accidentally be confirming that they are bad/evil/scary.

Getting a dog trainer who's used to working with GSD's would also help to get a true feel for what's going on.

Forgot to add some sites that you may find helpful to learn more about the aggression you are seeing:



http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0182.htm

Lot of reading if you go thru all these articles: http://www.siriusdog.com/articles/article295.htm



*Mod Edit*
One link to a site was removed due to that site directly soliciting for money due to a personal accident that happened to the site owner's property. I think begging for money is in extremely bad taste and I won't allow links to that site anymore due to that reason.

Will Rambeau
Moderator

Thank you for your input! I apprecitate especially your input Jenn as I have been thinking that Vader (my 3 year old)is snapping due to fear but I was not completely sure. The reason I think you are correct is that he is happiest when people just completly ignore him and not approach him, or ignore him but throw a ball for him. It is possible that I have over corrected him in the past for any sign of aggression and now he thinks strangers are something to be feared. I will do what you suggested and carry tasty treats with me on our outings and if someone wishes to pet him I will give them a treat to give to him. And if I do not have treats with me I will tell them not to pet him. The only time I worry is when you get idiots who just walk up to your dog (kids too) without asking first.
I do have another question for anyone who would like to answer but I am putting it under another topic, "Disipline" as I am still not sure how to use this board....
thank you!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Check your Private Mailings!

Thank you Jenn!! I am going to read it right now!
Sincerely,
Sam